Show notes:
Dave Cotterill shares how SoulCommunitysSA blends mental well-being, creativity, and faith to shape vibrant, trusting spaces in London’s diverse Deptford area
- Guest: Dave Cotterill
- Connect with Dave here: @soulcommunitysa
- Episode host: Mark Robinson – fx Comms
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
This is an automated transcript and may not be fully accurate.
00:00:07:24 – 00:00:28:09
Speaker 1
Hey, my name is Mark Robinson, and I’m a member of the ops team here at Fresh Expressions. Today I’m chatting with Dave Cottrell and we’re going to be talking a little bit about a community choir. This is a mission shaped podcast.
00:00:28:11 – 00:00:32:14
Speaker 1
Good morning Dave. Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?
00:00:32:16 – 00:00:40:17
Speaker 2
I’m okay. Yeah. The sun sun’s out. And that’s always makes me feel so much better about life. But really glad to be here.
00:00:40:19 – 00:00:49:03
Speaker 1
I was given a list of people to chat to who have great stories, and I know you’re not going to let the stand, so no pressure anymore.
00:00:49:05 – 00:00:49:24
Speaker 2
Okay.
00:00:50:01 – 00:01:04:17
Speaker 1
Why don’t why don’t we get straight into it? And why don’t you tell us a little bit about your community? Maybe that what it is and, how and why it started?
00:01:04:19 – 00:01:29:21
Speaker 2
Yeah, sure. Well. Well, I guess first start was with where we are in the world. So we’re in a in a place, in south east London called Deptford. Which, which is next door to where I have to sit when I explain to people where we’re at, because everyone is at that. It is. It is next, next to Greenwich, and it has been to Greenwich to like the O2 and the Metro parks and stuff like that.
00:01:29:22 – 00:01:54:24
Speaker 2
So, it’s kind of, Deptford is Greenwich is kind of poor a night historically speaking. You know, Greenwich is where all the admirals and stuff live in depth. It was where all their sailors, the brothels, the pubs were. So it’s, it’s kind of tucked, tucked in between, Greenwich and I guess, London Bridge is probably the next kind of recognizable space, right?
00:01:55:01 – 00:02:19:05
Speaker 2
But it’s very cool, interesting, uncomfortable, exciting place to live. It’s it’s it’s many things like, I guess London is rich in diversity. It’s got its here. It’s got its history. I mentioned, kind of the kind of exciting history it’s got, but it’s got some uncomfortable history as well. That’s, always good to to know your history.
00:02:19:07 – 00:02:53:20
Speaker 2
I guess we’ll come back to that later. But, Yeah, my community, is it’s called soul Community. It’s, it’s a network of people, that are exploring, wellbeing and spirituality, in lots of different, different ways. It presents itself in, in various forms, outside of church buildings, in, in other people’s spaces. And is.
00:02:53:20 – 00:03:16:22
Speaker 2
Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s always evolving. And I think, when I think of London, you know, particularly this, this area of London where, you know, this gentrification is, has been really pushed. You’re getting lots of people coming and going. And that is the way of it. And likewise, so community has been, is always moving.
00:03:16:22 – 00:03:42:06
Speaker 2
It’s always evolving. And, yeah, we’re just, just trying our best to see, what is helpful to the community. What is possible with the community with is an important word, and, really to understand really where, where God is really, moving, and more often than not, Mark in the places where we least expect it.
00:03:42:08 – 00:03:45:01
Speaker 2
But it’s been great. It’s been a great journey.
00:03:45:03 – 00:03:53:14
Speaker 1
So tell us about the why was what inspired you to, to get involved in this community or, and and how did it,
00:03:53:16 – 00:04:43:17
Speaker 2
Be. Yeah. Well, we we’re we’re from the Salvation Army tradition. And I guess, like, most church traditions at the moment are working out what, well, dealing with it’s the numerical, reality of churches, I guess, in, in, in terms of decline working out, you know, that that sitting with that reality and working out what’s, what’s needed, what’s, not, you know, whether it needs to pivot or, try something complete new and, and salvage not I mean, as you probably probably know, is done the key key and has been, within the, fresh expression movement and kind of, gosh, it seems a long time ago now, about
00:04:43:17 – 00:05:09:12
Speaker 2
ten years in some sense, is a long time in other senses not. But we my wife and I had lived in Deptford for a while. We attended the local Salvation Army, church. And you know that feeling in your stomach where something needs to change. And more often now God’s calling you to do something and, we were just really working out what that really meant, and we didn’t have the answers.
00:05:09:12 – 00:05:35:02
Speaker 2
And, guy Andrew Vert again, who, ended up the fresh expression and movement within within the Salvation Army, kind of sidle alongside, as it were, on conference and kind of just said, you know, what about this, guys? You know, I know you’re you’re passionate about, people outside the church. You created this. Yeah. Chris, my wife has always been passionate about people outside the church, particularly young people.
00:05:35:04 – 00:05:59:13
Speaker 2
And, you know, is this something that perhaps God’s calling you to and, you know, yeah, he listed off the characteristics of the pioneer, and it was just, you know, check. Yeah. We that’s us. Check. That’s, you know, and it was, really, I don’t know what the word was. It, it felt like it felt like, an invitation couldn’t really, refuse.
00:05:59:13 – 00:06:12:19
Speaker 2
And we were given the opportunity. The Salvation Army, really gracious and excited to have to to try something new. And, we we went for it and, Yeah, yeah.
00:06:12:21 – 00:06:55:06
Speaker 1
He I wonder how how many, sort of communities are, exist because of the influence of, the mighty verse again and his reputation for that. Certainly. Yeah. Brilliant. Love the guy. Love the guy. Yeah. So then, tell us a little bit. So say you were inspired to do things differently. I, I was going to assume that you probably were in that category of people where the run of the mill stuff didn’t quite hit it for you felt there was something more.
00:06:55:08 – 00:07:20:07
Speaker 1
So what specifically was, was the inspiration for the soul community and, and and and what does that look like? Sort of. Yeah. From from a day to day. Sorry. Let’s let’s. The benchmark is most people think of church outside of the fresh expressions movement. Most people think of church as being sitting in a nice building, maybe in pews, maybe round tables, what have you.
00:07:20:07 – 00:07:38:13
Speaker 1
Maybe a bit of worship, a bit of, bit of preaching, but that kind of thing most people get that is the idea of church in the Fresh Expressions movement. Most people understand that church can be anything, and so most. What does, soul community look like from that? From a point in.
00:07:38:13 – 00:07:38:23
Speaker 2
The.
00:07:39:00 – 00:07:44:11
Speaker 1
Ship and, and what inspired something that.
00:07:44:13 – 00:08:16:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Well, I should start with they, we were asked not to start anything up for a year, and, and I’ll start there because that’s, you know, with, with most fresh expressions as I know it anyway, and as you, as you’ll have, all of us will have seen the cycle, the fresh expression. So we start with that listening and, and I have to say from a, from, a Salvation Army perspective where we are, you know, and I’m a lifer brought up in the Salvation Army doing for others, doing stuff, and helping people and all that is really valid.
00:08:16:15 – 00:08:35:13
Speaker 2
But to be told not to do that, formally. Anyway, was a bit of a job, but but gave us real opportunity to kind of, you know, really seek out, listen and get to know people. And it’s just so, you know, just sounds so basic, but it’s just so key. And we would just ask questions of people, make friends with people.
00:08:35:13 – 00:08:57:20
Speaker 2
People invite us out and for parties to the houses for dinner. It was like revolutionary because, you know, it didn’t really happen to us before. So like, we were, we were connecting, with lots and lots of people in lots of different spaces. And where we’d often ask the question, kind of, you know, obviously we’ve we’ve got these roles within the salvation Army, the church kind of work.
00:08:57:20 – 00:09:22:23
Speaker 2
You know, what does what does the community need of the church at the moment and what would come back more often than not? What would be this wellbeing coming back? Mental health? You know, we live in a really, really busy, intense part of London in, which we love. It’s a double edged sword, and in many ways, you know, it’s it’s amazing diversity, people, but it’s exhausting.
00:09:23:01 – 00:09:53:04
Speaker 2
You know, it’s there are, the also so the, you know, I can open my door to anything, if any day please type fight lovely things as well. But, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s an intense place to live and, and that really affects people. And so that, that kind of wellbeing and, mental health thing kept coming back to us and, we wondered what that might look like.
00:09:53:06 – 00:10:21:18
Speaker 2
What? You know, what what would church look like with that? You know, as it’s kind of lens, I guess. And so I guess naturally, like, like many of us, perhaps many of us that have kind of shifted away from noisy churches with music and loud preaching and lots of people, I guess we, we we decided, and felt comfortable with moving into there more contemplative, practices, of the church, which we were not brought up with.
00:10:21:18 – 00:10:42:06
Speaker 2
So it’s all new for us as well, which I think was helpful, for people to kind of understand as well. Like this was new for us as well. Wasn’t us kind of break this kind of thing, you know, this is good for us. You know, it might be good if, we were doing it together, figured it out together, and we, we, came across, the take time meditation stuff.
00:10:42:08 – 00:11:12:15
Speaker 2
But then I’ve come across that, but, the, I think came from, in the Methodist church, really helpful. I mean, when that came along, it was just gold, you know, really helpful. Kind of 20 minutes. Meditation, kind of breathing and silence and dropping you in on a story of Jesus. And just asking you the the kind of question, kind of question you get opportunity to ask Jesus and share with Jesus whatever’s on your heart, whatever’s on your mind.
00:11:12:17 – 00:11:36:07
Speaker 2
And we did that in person, and we did that online, particularly during Covid. And that’s sort of stuff’s just been really helpful using kind of examine, prayers. But we also, started experimenting with art, when you, when you come for a visit to Deptford, Mark. You’ll see street are everywhere.
00:11:36:09 – 00:11:36:16
Speaker 1
Okay.
00:11:36:18 – 00:12:10:08
Speaker 2
And, it’s it’s just great, you know, makes, it makes the place come alive. And, I decided, actually, off the back of some study I was doing with Church Mission Society, to to write some meditations, in and around these, these streets are the street art that was everywhere. And I did that during Covid where, you know, we obviously were not allowed to kind of hang out with each other as much, but we were able to go to the shops at those times.
00:12:10:08 – 00:12:33:10
Speaker 2
And I really wanted people to, have landmarks in their day on the way to asteroid, like kids off at school or whatever. And remember these kind of meditations, whether they be on compassion, justice, I can remember some of the others off the top of my head, but kind of, we we used art a lot at that for this famous.
00:12:33:12 – 00:12:58:09
Speaker 2
Oh, I say famous. I saw in a documentary, that, you know, it’s got more art than anywhere else. And, in the UK. So it’s a very, very creative place. And so tapping into that sort of stuff was felt, felt good, felt right. And, and people that people enjoyed it, whether they were, whether they’re of faith, or not.
00:12:58:11 – 00:13:22:17
Speaker 2
It was, it was I would continue to use those spaces really. We also use, we’re on the on the banks of the River Thames, Mark. And, the river’s just become a really important landmark for us. You know, as, as mentioned, it’s a really, that fits very intense. But you do. There are spaces in the area, like the river where you breathe.
00:13:22:17 – 00:13:44:14
Speaker 2
And so we’ve written a lot of. Yeah, meditations in and around that which we’ve started. Producing our own walking meditations. Where we, where we record is accompanied by beautiful music and usually has a topic. And we do that in groups, walk along the river for half an hour, come back and chat on the way back.
00:13:44:14 – 00:14:02:09
Speaker 2
And it’s just been really, again, just a really natural, interesting and, and, yeah, lovely way to kind of connect with people, and offer them something, gently. Of of the Christian faith. That’s that’s how helpful them.
00:14:02:11 – 00:14:24:20
Speaker 1
It’s. Yeah, it’s it, I hear that, so I should have said the bit at the beginning. I’m, I’m also in London over over in west London. I also I’m not massively similar with Deptford. I have been through Deptford. So when you’re talking about, like, art everywhere, it’s one of the things I loved. Yeah. At sea.
00:14:24:21 – 00:14:35:10
Speaker 1
I just think it’s, It reminds me a little bit of. And, with all the art of Shoreditch, but it’s got the river. Yeah.
00:14:35:12 – 00:14:40:01
Speaker 2
I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:40:03 – 00:15:08:01
Speaker 1
But I think it’s. Yeah. Fascinating to think of that operating in a, in a space where you’ve got the intensity of the city, you know, because where, where we are in London, where it’s, it’s quite, it’s it’s very suburb. It’s very chill. And there is a thing of like, you go into the, the heart of London, you just, you pick up on that vibe of it just gets busier, the pace picking up, and the pace.
00:15:08:01 – 00:15:10:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. Itself rather
00:15:10:16 – 00:15:15:21
Speaker 2
Yeah. And sirens and. Yeah, a noise arguments.
00:15:15:23 – 00:15:16:15
Speaker 1
Like people.
00:15:16:15 – 00:15:19:10
Speaker 2
Selling stuff. It’s it’s. Yeah, yeah. It’s life.
00:15:19:12 – 00:15:43:09
Speaker 1
Yeah. What about. So tell us about and, this bike fit into it. Tell us about what the, the sort of significant challenges being to sort of in either when you were getting going or and just the, the day to day. What are the what are the biggest challenges experienced?
00:15:43:11 – 00:16:13:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, it’s it’s it’s, let’s be honest, anyone starting anything new, whether it’s a business, or whatever, it’s it’s a challenge to start with nothing in, to start with nothing and build something out of the dust that there’s a challenge. And I think, I think we’ll probably we’re, we’re but young and naive, and we didn’t have kids at the time and just thought everything was possible.
00:16:13:02 – 00:16:43:01
Speaker 2
And I guess it, you know, we we know that is true. It’s written in the Bible that things are possible, but, I think it, I think not until we we put our feet on the ground and started. We realized that really, we didn’t have a building. We didn’t have any money. Really? They gave us a little bit of money just to kind of meet people for coffees and stuff like that.
00:16:43:03 – 00:17:04:17
Speaker 2
All we had was us, ourselves, Mark and, and I remember my father in law kind of reading our. We were just kind of used to the, quarterly reports. My father in law just said, you know, you you are offering yourselves as living sacrifice your bodies every day because that’s all you’ve got. Your gifts, your personality.
00:17:04:22 – 00:17:21:04
Speaker 2
That’s all you’ve got to go on rather than, you know, the attraction or model. Yeah, that kind of look what we’ve got over here. It’s made machines light and stuff like that. You know, you guys ourselves. And I think that kind of dawned on us very early on that, we were gonna have to really dig, dig deep, really, really accept that.
00:17:21:04 – 00:17:42:24
Speaker 2
God, best hope that is in control of this, because, you know, we’re just we’re just, we’re just flesh, aren’t we? So, I guess kind of in terms of a challenge, I think. So once we realized that that was that, that took a bit of the pressure. Pressure off us, really. And, you know, I’m an introvert.
00:17:42:24 – 00:18:02:13
Speaker 2
If I’m, if I’m perfectly honest, it was is a big learning curve for me in, in cafes and, you know, I would, you know, a few times I really felt that God was just saying, you need to speak to this person, and and I hate speaking to people out of nowhere. If I’m watching football with somebody great.
00:18:02:13 – 00:18:07:09
Speaker 2
You know, you’ve got some, covered crowds to work with, music or whatever, but,
00:18:07:11 – 00:18:14:20
Speaker 1
That playlist, they I so there’s other people that I’m an Irish introvert to be bullied comes I’ll.
00:18:14:20 – 00:18:15:15
Speaker 2
Have it’s.
00:18:15:17 – 00:18:16:24
Speaker 1
Out of context. Just fresh. Yeah.
00:18:16:24 – 00:18:18:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:18:09 – 00:18:18:20
Speaker 1
Goodness.
00:18:18:23 – 00:18:52:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. You should do a podcast. The the introvert pioneer. That’ll be an interesting one. But, Yeah, I guess that’s a challenge. And I think expectations, you know, I don’t know if you’ve come across any aligned Heath is, theologian in America empire. And for a long time, often talks about pioneers being locked in ruts for anxious systems, and, and churches and, I wouldn’t say the Salvation Army’s anxious, but, you know, we talked about the decline of, of churches for some time.
00:18:52:20 – 00:19:14:02
Speaker 2
And I think, I think pine is there often there’s a there’s a magnifying glass on them to see, you know, we give them this opportunity, let’s see what they did with it. And gosh, you know, but it happened quick, you know, and I think, you know, in some senses we weren’t given a timeline of when they wanted whatever it was they were looking for to happen.
00:19:14:04 – 00:19:36:20
Speaker 2
But, yeah, that, that, that was the evidently a pressure and communicating to, to the organization, the powers that be, I guess. What? Well, you know, what what was happening. You know, we often we often, we often refer to the Bible passage where it says the kingdom of God is like treasure buried in a field.
00:19:36:20 – 00:20:06:19
Speaker 2
And we really wanted to find the treasure that was, was out there. And I think sometimes, we’ve got to have a conversation with people because our treasures different, right? We would. Well, you know, we would find people that were, like, really up for doing stuff or that we’d collaborate with, you know, and we tell people about it and we’d kind of just get quizzical looks, you know, that, you know, that’s not my treasure.
00:20:06:21 – 00:20:33:07
Speaker 2
But it was it was real treasure to us because, you know, when you got nothing, when you meet somebody that’s up for doing something with you out of nowhere, out of nothing. That’s how we perceive that. That scripture. Really. So I guess kind of having conversations, with the with the Salvation Army about, with some people about, you know, this this is, this is treasure and and, then not agreeing was perhaps quite tricky.
00:20:33:09 – 00:20:35:01
Speaker 2
Tricky thing to navigate.
00:20:35:03 – 00:20:42:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. Appreciate the love. That’s the it’s not a unique, that’s a unique problem for many.
00:20:42:13 – 00:20:43:11
Speaker 2
No fresh.
00:20:43:11 – 00:21:23:01
Speaker 1
Expressions practitioners. Across the nations, we we see it time and time again, where again, it feels like the, the treasure typically translates in the in traditional forms of church to bums on seats that you can measure. Yeah. Whereas a lot of the work that in, in this movement isn’t necessarily, about bums on seats and, and it can look very, very different and it’s difficult for some of these institutions that are very old, that are operated in the same way for such a long time to start thinking differently about.
00:21:23:01 – 00:21:49:11
Speaker 1
Yeah, the treasure and and what’s good that was found, it was as you were talking about, I was thinking of the, the idea of someone who is, is looking on the, on the sandy shore, and they’re looking for treasure. And they, they’re looking for, like, bits of jewelry, and they’re not going to be happy until they pull out, like, maybe a ring or a little necklace of jewelry and they pick up all these sort of brownish rocks and they toss them to the side.
00:21:49:13 – 00:22:08:17
Speaker 1
But the other guy comes along, picks up these brownish rocks, gives them a polish, and there’s a little nuggets of gold which can be far more valuable than the little gold necklace, because that gets melted down. Or find something beautiful and you and and it sounds. Yeah, yeah. That’s quite a similar kind of journey, isn’t it? Yes.
00:22:08:19 – 00:22:29:16
Speaker 2
I think so. And I think the other thing with that treasure is to really cherish it, you know, it’s it’s, it’s not for our use. They’re not. These people are not for our, I don’t know, but for our purposes to feel good about what we’re doing or to communicate, even to communicate to people. Look at this.
00:22:29:16 – 00:22:44:11
Speaker 2
You know, it’s that there’s a there’s a gold. It’s God’s treasure. And to to really treasure that and sit with it and get to know this, these people and it is, is is really, really important. Really important.
00:22:44:13 – 00:23:24:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. Tell me then. A little bit. So it’s an, it’s again it’s a common thread. It’s a we, we talk about this a lot. Pioneering is lonely. And even even when you have a great amount of support and, from, from your denominational leaders or the people around you. It’s still within, within the context where we’ve talking about sometimes people just don’t get it, you know, and there’s they’re still saying, okay, but what’s successful and all that and that can be isolating in some, some ways.
00:23:24:06 – 00:23:45:16
Speaker 1
And so we recognize that it can be sometimes a lonely journey. So what is it that you guys do, to keep yourself reset, to keep yourself well and to keep yourself healthy? Spiritually, mentally, physically, all of that. How does that work out for you to, to keep grounded?
00:23:45:18 – 00:24:19:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. This is such a key question. And, I, I, I think the, the best thing I would say is, is staying connected to some kind of faith group in some way. And, we connect with a was, a Salvation Army. Church here as well. I, if I’m honest for, for for our, for our kids sake, we don’t do any kids work.
00:24:19:07 – 00:24:50:19
Speaker 2
Within our community. Really. But but it just being part of another group that’s working out things and that’s, you know, that’s healthy and good for you. I think just being rooted in that kind of space is really important. For us anyway, I took on some study with, with Church Mission Society and I got to tell you, like, that’s revolutionary in terms, my theological understanding of things.
00:24:50:19 – 00:25:15:07
Speaker 2
You know, what? What was happening on the ground, in front of our eyes. Was it matching up with how I understood God at work? And being able to have those spaces? Great. Great sheets, teaching from, you know, people like Johnny Baker and and people like that just really, really brilliant in terms of making you feel like you’re not a completely crazy and thinking things and questioning things.
00:25:15:07 – 00:25:47:11
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I think there’s an element of deconstruction within, within, as far as, as I’m aware in terms of connecting partners as an element of deconstruction with, within pioneer, because you are leaving behind a system, a way of working, a way of understanding, gathering, worshiping, you are leaving it behind. And that is, costs costly. And to be working that stuff outside of your context as well, in this case church Mission Society, has, no pluck, by the way.
00:25:47:11 – 00:26:23:05
Speaker 2
But you know, a secret mission society. Yeah. Really, really helpful. You can and, you know, within that, you’re visiting places all over the country, you know, doing lots of different stuff, lots of different stuff. And I think that’s been the other part of it. You know, you know, you probably get a good insight into this, mark, to seeing the diversity and the imagination of different people in different contexts with this boxing gyms, farms, you know, I don’t know, sport music, like it’s, it starts in like it starts open in your mind and around you.
00:26:23:10 – 00:26:51:06
Speaker 2
Oh, God. I could do this. And, you know, that is is possible. So that’s been a really important part of, as a as, stay staying sane. Probably. But, you know, where I’m, I’m, I’m really passionate about having a life outside of this thing, which is hard because, you know, you live incarnational and, you know, one minute walking down the street, getting the bread from the shop, and the next someone to come up to, you tapped me on the shoulder and.
00:26:51:06 – 00:27:10:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. And you’re working and kind of. Or are you, I don’t know, straight away. And having life outside, you know, you know, we talked about camping before about, you know, especially you live in this city. You got to get out. Yeah. Got to get out and breathe the fresh air again. The sea, the country or whatever it is.
00:27:10:05 – 00:27:33:03
Speaker 2
I play football, every week with, with with a group of guys that I kind of don’t really know that well, but it’s the anonymity is great. Just go play football, blow off some steam. And, Yeah, but I, I, I have to say, by and large, the activities that we do within so community are life given.
00:27:33:05 – 00:27:55:10
Speaker 2
Like, they are not drains. And that’s something that we’re really, really careful to kind of, make sure that, you know, if something, if stomach is becoming a drain or a life support, it’s it’s probably time to, to kind of critique it a bit. Okay. So, one of the things which is often people say that must drain the life out of you, where, I lead this choir in our local public.
00:27:55:12 – 00:28:13:16
Speaker 2
So I was a musician before. Mark, I still am. But, we decided that we’d start this, choir up, you know, good for mental health and something I, you know, there was a student at Goldsmith’s College, which is down the road from us that really wanted to do with us. So we thought, gosh, go for it.
00:28:13:18 – 00:28:38:18
Speaker 2
Well, that’s been the best thing. Best thing? I’ve I’ve probably been able to be part of a massive group of people. We sing in this local pub right in the middle of Thetford High Street. Great people we have. We have such so much fun and, we have fun. But, you know, the space for the for not being great as well, you know, carries on.
00:28:38:18 – 00:29:00:21
Speaker 2
I personally have had, more than our fair share of grief over the last, two years. And, and, you know, that’s something that everybody at some point goes through. And so we’ve been able to hold space for that in that space, in particular. But it has been by large been life giving. So, yeah, having a, a life outside of this of stuff.
00:29:00:21 – 00:29:24:04
Speaker 2
Very k well, you know, but Kieran away getting away as much as he can but, but in up my encouragement would always be, you know as best you can make sure your stuff’s life given. Can’t always be so you know. Well rest a little. And you know we have a constellation of people and we’re sitting in some really tragic situations.
00:29:24:06 – 00:29:29:10
Speaker 2
But, that would be my would be my encouragement to people.
00:29:29:11 – 00:29:29:23
Speaker 1
And stuff.
00:29:30:04 – 00:29:32:08
Speaker 2
And to myself. I’m talking to myself as well.
00:29:32:11 – 00:30:02:03
Speaker 1
But, that that sort of leads us on. There was another question going to ask, but you sort of rolling, rolling on to the question I always ask everyone about, what do you say to people to inspire others, who are thinking of starting a journey? Either whether it be just the fledgling ideas that they’re not comfortable in, in their traditional church, or they might have an idea or they might be doing stuff and thinking of something new.
00:30:02:03 – 00:30:11:14
Speaker 1
What’s what? What do you say to people who are at that stage, who who are yeah. Thinking about doing something new.
00:30:11:16 – 00:30:35:23
Speaker 2
I think, firstly, I that’s, that’s the start of the journey is and it’s so exciting when some, you know, someone musters up the courage to say, I think I want to do something different. I don’t fit here. I think this is where I want to go. And that’s that’s always really exciting. And, I think, Kiki skills are pioneering.
00:30:36:00 – 00:30:57:01
Speaker 2
Of course, of course. And always should be listening. You know, I thought about that first year of listening. You know, we should always be listening really, really carefully, building that into our practice, our weekly practices. I had something else in my head, which is really brilliant, I’m sure. But, what else would I say to say to people?
00:30:57:03 – 00:31:02:07
Speaker 2
00:31:02:09 – 00:31:05:20
Speaker 2
This will be a bit Fred to Saint Mark over there. So,
00:31:05:22 – 00:31:06:17
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:31:06:19 – 00:31:12:04
Speaker 2
What else would I say to people?
00:31:12:06 – 00:31:40:20
Speaker 2
I, I think it’s, I think it’s about, I always said it before is just staying connected to people. I think this, you know, I think people are really pushing into coaching. And mentoring was in pioneer. And I think people are seeing that as that’s, that’s, that’s something that we need. I think, I think, when people are kind of hearing that now, we don’t need and we don’t really need managing.
00:31:40:22 – 00:32:11:23
Speaker 2
Oh, That’s different. We need coaching, which is kind of bringing your ideas and bringing your insecurities to a space where someone can gently reflect back to you, kind of, you know what? What’s what’s possible and kind of holding you a little bit accountable to that. But I think there’s just so many different types of, organizations, you know, this podcast, you know, there’s all sorts of podcasts around that, can help you.
00:32:11:23 – 00:32:31:24
Speaker 2
Church missus side training. You know, there’s there’s a lot of stuff around, but I and I think for different people it would be, you know, it’s not a one size fits all within not pioneering. So, yeah, I did have something else that I marked up to. It’ll probably come back to me right at the end.
00:32:32:01 – 00:33:01:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. Probably not. So. Right. Let me let me ask you this then as well. Gun. Where, arrested without necessarily having to name specific people or anything like that. But where have you seen. Where have you seen transformation in people overseeing God’s God moving, I guess, in the people that you’re working with.
00:33:01:08 – 00:33:05:23
Speaker 2
I think.
00:33:06:00 – 00:33:38:17
Speaker 2
Transformation is such is such a is a really big word. And and I’m sometimes reluctant to use it in my language. It’s quite dramatic. It kind of reminds me more so of my, more evangelical days, which were which were great days when we used to see dramatic things happening. And and if I’m honest, either way, we’ve not seen that sort of transformation.
00:33:38:19 – 00:34:19:08
Speaker 2
Certainly in that sense. But I think, where I’ve seen transformation most is when people are collaborating and being with each other. I think one of the key skills for pioneering that we, that we do is build this building trust. And and that’s really important because, not everybody is trustful of, of of organizations and of churches is enough Netflix documentaries and Disney documentaries to paint the church in a, in a, in a, in a different light.
00:34:19:10 – 00:34:50:12
Speaker 2
And so and there’s a lot of work to do in that in that sense. But when we do build that trust and when we do bring people together and we collaborate, I start to see little glimpses of the kingdom of God where I never thought there would be, where people bring their skills and talents together and start creating spaces and ideas and initiatives that make my every or that’s, attack a lot more hopeful.
00:34:50:14 – 00:35:11:10
Speaker 2
And I think that’s how I, that’s how I, that’s my school scorecard, these days for transformation. A great example of that is, is, we were invite I don’t know if you went past Deptford Market Park on the, on the, on your trip that but it’s it’s, it’s a proper old school south east London market.
00:35:11:11 – 00:35:33:22
Speaker 2
It’s pretty hairy at times. It’s got I mean, it’s it’s fun with my, my, invites me to, invite tonight, actually, to kind of sit on his coffee. Coffee still there? It just started there. And this is one of the, just great stories. And he invited us to just to be there. Be around what? An invitation to be part of.
00:35:33:24 – 00:35:53:15
Speaker 2
And, we got talking with a few of the guys on that coffee store and including my mate, and he was particularly passionate about, like, people that you’ve seen in the market that were, you know, struggling with the out of it, you know, could it could do that job. He was always been asked if there was a job going.
00:35:53:16 – 00:36:27:24
Speaker 2
And so we created, with another guy on, that we met, Peak Coffee Academy, which is, you know, it trains young people basically to, to to pour coffee like that, you know, but the biggest growing industry in the world, probably coffee at the moment. And, growing coffee, selling coffee, coffee shops is all around. And so, you know, that kind of idea that, and that kind of need and that kind of bringing together skills, there was this kind of transformation in all of us to kind of be vulnerable, I guess we all shared why we were doing what we were doing.
00:36:27:24 – 00:36:46:24
Speaker 2
I brought my faith into it. I might go into kind of his, his, longings to kind of serve the community. And, I kind of saw, you know, as a result of that, you know, I’ve got pictures of, of my wall with, of these guys, young people that have turned up to college, from all parts of the globe on their entry level.
00:36:47:01 – 00:37:18:24
Speaker 2
So group had no English language. And we were all of a sudden providing opportunities for these young people to, to train in, making coffee and some of the went to, to, to, to work. So it’s just amazing. And that’s kind of the way I see transformation in that sense. But the meditations I’ve mentioned before that that moment, particularly with the Take Time meditations, where, you know, after the Jesus story, the whoever’s leading the meditation will say, you know, and now share with Jesus whatever’s on your heart, whatever’s on your mind, the silence.
00:37:18:24 – 00:37:39:07
Speaker 2
And then there’s opportunity to reflect after that, some of the stuff that comes back from the particularly the people that heart Christian is really, really, wonderful. Sometimes people don’t say anything, but sometimes some somebody will say something that’s like, gosh, I’ve totally learned from you, and I’m being transformed in the process. Of course, you know I’m not.
00:37:39:07 – 00:37:50:01
Speaker 2
So it’s out. Yeah. But like far from it. So it’s kind of like this mutual reconciliation of people, that I see. Yeah. Transformation these days.
00:37:50:03 – 00:38:20:03
Speaker 1
It’s, it’s I’m realizing as you’ve been chatting, in even how I because I often ask people that question about. Yeah. Where have they seen people transforms kind of thing and, and you, I think you, you rightly pointed out where it’s a very narrow view that I’m asking that question, which I’m realize I’m guilty of leaning back on the old style of like, ultimately that’s about numbers because it’s, you know, how many people have you brought to faith?
00:38:20:03 – 00:38:48:11
Speaker 1
How many people have been converted to church? How many people have done that? And we realize that for I think the majority of people coming to faith or anything like that, because obviously we want people to know the, the, the living amazingness and grace of Jesus. But that’s not an overnight thing for some people, that can be instantaneous and that can be dramatic evangelical style.
00:38:48:13 – 00:38:50:14
Speaker 1
Well, version experience if you like.
00:38:50:16 – 00:38:51:04
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:38:51:06 – 00:39:21:04
Speaker 1
But for so more, so much more people, it’s a really slow burn. Yeah. And it’s people will suddenly you can ask people’s like, when did you when did you think of yourself as someone who follows Jesus? Yeah, I find it really interesting when people go like, oh gosh, I dunno, it just kind of happened and happened. Yeah, I think more and more because it’s, it’s, I guess in our, in, in, in our society today, people don’t want to be sold.
00:39:21:06 – 00:39:26:08
Speaker 1
Jesus. People don’t. People run away from the marketing. Yeah. So these days.
00:39:26:10 – 00:39:53:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, we, and I’m a big fan of the word simmering. Mark. Selena Stone and a and a but then if you come across much of her work but talks about simmering, and you know how a good stew she talks about Caribbean stews that her mum used to make, you know, her cooking for hours. And I think we gotta be careful in some sense is that, we don’t move too quickly.
00:39:53:12 – 00:40:02:24
Speaker 2
We don’t figure out things too quickly, if that makes sense. But, like, you know, in some sense, you know, I’ve been doing this for eight years, which for some people is a very long time.
00:40:03:01 – 00:40:04:17
Speaker 1
Well, you know.
00:40:04:19 – 00:40:32:23
Speaker 2
But another said it is no time at all. And working out all this deep work in the soil, I guess, theological work people, you know, it’s, it’s something that that needs to simmer sometimes and, and, and I think I would just encourage anyone that’s supporting anyone in pioneering. It’s just allow that simmering to take place rather than kind of, gosh, when is it going to happen?
00:40:33:00 – 00:40:54:22
Speaker 2
What’s going to be and when are they going to do this? What are people going to say? Those words, which is hard. And that’s takes nerve. And that takes a lot of, boldness. I think, particularly if you are funding something or if you’re particularly, looking for one result. So, yeah.
00:40:54:24 – 00:41:39:19
Speaker 1
They’ve we’ve come way over our time and I feel like this is hopefully where we’ve, we’ve, we’ve gone we start to get into a really interesting topic. Right towards the end. And I’d love to talk more, but, I think this is a good place to, to, to end, where people can unpack this a bit more in their, in their own discussions and certainly and we’ll be unpacking this because as you know, as, as the, the, the operations team, for the charity, we’re constantly trying to look at what are the one of the key topics that are coming out of these conversations.
00:41:39:21 – 00:41:55:06
Speaker 1
And there are some, some really interesting threads coming out that you’ve, you’ve touched on, but again, this, this whole idea of, you know what? Actually, when we talk about transformation, what does that look like? What does what does success look like?
00:41:55:08 – 00:41:56:01
Speaker 2
Or.
00:41:56:03 – 00:42:20:13
Speaker 1
A fresh expression, that we can sit with selves and not feel pressured because we recognize that feeling pressure to do something is a really toxic trait for this word, but also recognizing that we are accountable to other either denominational leaders or funding bodies or what have you, that we can at least start to translate in a really good and healthy way.
00:42:20:15 – 00:42:39:11
Speaker 1
What it does mean. But there’s a whole other conversation. Yeah, but I will say, Dave, thank you for your time. Yeah, it’s been great. We, we may need to have another chat and have you on again and unpack some of this other stuff. And, who knows, we may. We’ll do that. But, Yeah.
00:42:39:12 – 00:42:52:08
Speaker 1
Really appreciate your time. Yeah. Really appreciate. I’m. Yeah. I on as I’m not just like, oh, gosh, there’s so much, so much to think of me and but yeah, let’s stop it there.
00:42:52:08 – 00:43:03:08
Speaker 2
Well, I’ve just always happy to. Yeah. I mean, I just really appreciate telling my story and I think, I think telling your stories is, is a is the most powerful thing you can do. Yeah.
00:43:03:10 – 00:43:20:04
Speaker 1
Thank you for doing so. We the team will be praying for you. And we will pray that, Yeah. You know, you know, God’s Spirit with you and you are encouraged in, in all the right ways. So, yeah, thanks for your time. Thanks for being on.
00:43:20:06 – 00:43:26:07
Speaker 2
Thanks, Mark. I.
00:43:26:09 – 00:43:52:10
Speaker 1
Know if you want to catch up and find out more about Dave’s community, you can find them on Instagram at Soul Community. As a, if you want to connect with us, you can do so via our socials and through our main website. All of that is on fresh Expressions for UK. And finally, if you’ve been inspired by what you’ve heard today but you’re unsure of where to start, godsend is our amazing toolkit for creating new Christian communities.
00:43:52:12 – 00:44:00:10
Speaker 1
There’s loads of practical advice and real life stories. It’s a brilliant starting point to visit godsend Dot cloud. Take care.