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Show notes:
Ed & Leslie explore how the Church can embrace a mixed ecology, fostering innovation and collaboration between traditional and pioneering expressions of Christian community.
- Guests: Ed Olsworth-Peter & Leslie Newton
- Buy the book here: freshexpressions.org.uk/shop
- Episode host: Simon Goddard – fx Resourcing
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
00:00:05:14 – 00:00:23:13
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Mission Shaped podcast. This is the author’s take. A stream where we listen to authors unpack some of the nuances of their books related to the movement.
00:00:23:15 – 00:00:46:24
Speaker 2
So welcome to another one of our author conversations. It’s really good that you’re able to join us for this. And, joining me, and also have pizza and, Leslie Newton, let me introduce myself, and then I’ll introduce our guests. Today, well, I’ll let them introduce themselves. So my name is Simon Goddard. I, lead on resourcing at Friendship Fresh Expressions here in the UK.
00:00:46:24 – 00:01:05:16
Speaker 2
I’m a local practitioner involved in some nature based fresh expressions of church. I’m a Baptist, minister. And work 2 or 3 days a week, with, fresh expressions. And I’m going to ask you to introduce yourself first. Ed. Good to see you again. Tell us a little bit further. Those who are watching or listening.
00:01:05:17 – 00:01:07:19
Speaker 2
Tell us a little bit about yourself.
00:01:07:21 – 00:01:30:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thanks. It’s great to be here. I’m Ed, also with Peter. My role is. I’m, director of innovation at Saint Mellitus College, which is an Anglican theological college. But I’ve been ordained in the church for about 20 years of was an ordained pioneer. Led fresh expressions and was part of the fresh expression UK national team with Simon and others.
00:01:30:18 – 00:01:34:01
Speaker 1
As well as heading up pioneer ministry for the Church of England.
00:01:34:03 – 00:01:57:15
Speaker 2
I’m Leslie Newton, I’m a methodist district chair at the moment. Living in York and, as part of my role, I’m on the ethics board. And I’ve been for the last couple of years and also serve as co-chair of the Methodist New Places for New People guiding team, which is trying to stimulate, the ministry of Fresh expressions within the Methodist Church.
00:01:57:17 – 00:02:18:10
Speaker 2
And, just over a year ago now, I, I wrote a book which was a reflection on, an early Methodist story and how, I believe it has so much to inspire and teach us about how the Methodist movement can play its part within the wider church in terms of renewing the church for spiritual and social transformation.
00:02:18:11 – 00:02:40:05
Speaker 2
Thank you for introducing, yourselves. And, this is, with specifically talking about the mixed ecology book that, you’ve written, Ed and based on, Leslie’s book and his experience in the Methodist church, we thought it’d be a really good conversation. About mixed ecology or. I think you use the language, Leslie, in your book, a blended, ecology, of church.
00:02:40:05 – 00:03:14:04
Speaker 2
So be really good, sistah conversation. There. And, it would be good just to in terms of the as well. And I think it’s to turn and I, what we’re talking about with the mixed ecology, if you could tell us a little bit. Oh, I think I’m back. Sorry. Technical problems here. So, if you could tell us a little bit about what you mean by mixed ecology, but also tell us a little bit about the process of writing a book.
00:03:14:05 – 00:03:17:21
Speaker 2
I think it took quite an interesting, approach to this.
00:03:17:23 – 00:03:38:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. So within the Church of England, we used a language now of mixed ecology that that’s been on a whole journey over the last ten, 15 years, a mixed economy. Then the blended church we talked about a little bit, and then we’ve sort of landed on mixed ecology, I think, because of the nice sort of natural analogies that are quite helpful for the pioneer world as well.
00:03:38:02 – 00:04:01:21
Speaker 1
And really, it kind of uses the idea of ecosystems. So seeing different types of churches, different ways of being church, as an ecosystems rather than sort of just being side by side. They’re interconnected in some way, whether they’re aware of that or not. And I read the book out of probably out of ten years of teaching and thinking about the mixed ecology and different roles that I’ve had.
00:04:01:23 – 00:04:23:01
Speaker 1
And along the way, had some really interesting conversations with people, some who were theologians and practitioners, some had their oversight roles. So in writing the book, I had something I wanted to say, but I also wanted to bring in the little nuggets that I’ve heard from other people to kind of get their views, to sort of make it a slightly, broader conversation as a book.
00:04:23:03 – 00:04:39:22
Speaker 2
Great. Yeah. And, I was surprised when I, when I got the copy of it recently, I think I’ve forgotten, I think that this, this process of writing the book, it takes a little while, doesn’t it, to write a book and I, I forgot and that I was involved in it. And the surprise to see my name when I was flicking through the pages, I think I was involved in one of those conversations.
00:04:40:00 – 00:05:13:13
Speaker 2
It says gets the, good to do that. Say, the me start the conversation because, I think you’ve got a really helpful framework in the book. Based around, I think it’s five, chapters. And so, the the first question you ask is why a mixed ecology? And, so, yeah, that might be a really good place to start, but what why should the church adopt, a mixed ecology approach, to to the way it does missional ministry?
00:05:13:15 – 00:05:35:15
Speaker 1
There’s there’s two ways you could look at that question. So there’s the mixed ecology as recognizing the different expressions of church that are around, and there’s what makes the cozy for somebody. So they want to grow their own local mixed ecology. So they have an inherited or time honored expression of church, something that’s already there. And they’re also wanting to start a fresh expression of church or church club.
00:05:35:17 – 00:06:10:12
Speaker 1
So you can hold these two things. But I think generally I find myself writing, well, the law is because it’s already exists, it’s already there. So in a way, we were catching up with what’s been growing. And I know you think about the fresh expressions. Even in the UK certainly sort of five years ago we used to say that 75% of fresh expressions were birthed out of an existing church of some kind, normally where laypeople have seen a need to do something new alongside the existing church, but creating something that was church in its own right, and that is an example of a mixed ecology.
00:06:10:14 – 00:06:28:08
Speaker 1
So I think it’s already there. So the first thing I’d say, I think the other way is important is because actually there’s so much that could be done. The more that could be done, if we work together a little bit more and break down some of the barriers, it doesn’t mean we all have to be the same. I think the difference is so is vital to this ecosystem.
00:06:28:10 – 00:06:46:17
Speaker 1
But actually, if we just work in little echo chambers, we may well have something that is easy for us to give to someone else. That could be the making of their expression of church in any direction, and they might. You know who I just to lots of other might in this book often talked about a mixed ecology mobilizing people.
00:06:46:17 – 00:07:05:12
Speaker 1
You know, it can inspire each other but also gives people agency. And I think lastly, it helps people to see their own identity. What some people aren’t just a bit part in the the work of the church. So they’re not the sort of mavericks to the edge or the seemingly mainstream that isn’t exciting in the middle, which is not the case at all.
00:07:05:14 – 00:07:10:00
Speaker 1
Everyone’s got their part to play. We need everyone to do everything in that sense.
00:07:10:02 – 00:07:30:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. That’s great. And I, I one of the bits of language that come out in the book, which I, when I’ve heard you using it in the past, and I tend to, to use it now partly because it offers this positive expression, of what is already there. So I know I’ve used the word inherited church sometimes, and people have heard that in a negative way.
00:07:30:08 – 00:07:51:18
Speaker 2
But you use the phrase time honored, ways of being, church, I think is really, really positive and encouraging. And also interesting in that question of why, why makes the call that you talk about this framework, sort of with two axes. Two might just connect a little bit about that.
00:07:51:20 – 00:08:10:14
Speaker 1
Yeah. So there’s a tiny very quick story within that. So in doses of Ili when I was working there today only is like maybe ten years ago we were developing a sort of scale of in that language inheritors and pioneering, just noticing the churches that were going on. And then the pioneer spectrum was published, CMS, Tina Hodge and Paul Barbara.
00:08:10:14 – 00:08:29:21
Speaker 1
And at the time we were like, oh, no, they beat us to it. They were on similar thoughts. It was much better than what we were developing. So, it’s fantastic they did that. And that got around the world. But as I used it a lot, working with local churches particularly, he wasn’t necessarily promising or pioneering. They often say, well, where are we on this spectrum?
00:08:29:21 – 00:08:48:22
Speaker 1
We we love what it’s saying, but we don’t. Well, you know, we’re not pioneering something. We’re not planting. So if you take the pioneer spectrum as a sort of horizontal axis of maybe something attracts nil at one end and the context at the other. In the book, I’m suggesting a vertical axis that crosses it when you’ve got, I call legacy and founding.
00:08:48:22 – 00:09:10:22
Speaker 1
So the top of the axis, the highest point would be legacy. So something already exists, something which is already there and founding at the bottom where nothing exists yet it’s yet to be for me. If you put the two axes together, I think you could plot pretty much any expression of church in that world. And the last thing I said, there’s lots of hard edge around the axes.
00:09:10:22 – 00:09:16:00
Speaker 1
I think it can stretch as far as it wants to because things develop and grow. You know, they’re going to change over time.
00:09:16:02 – 00:09:38:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. That’s great. I mean, in all of this, I want to encourage people to go out and buy the book because we can only sort of do a little bit of justice to to these themes that come out in the book or in our conversation. And so, I’ll, fresh expressions, dot org.uk/shop. You can access the the book there.
00:09:38:04 – 00:10:03:18
Speaker 2
Leslie, as we hear, and talk about, that first chapter, why mix the college and then you got any thoughts or responses to what what I said, what we’re singing from the same hymn sheet. I think. Absolutely, I think I think my, my observation from our Methodist perspective is that, is, is to recognize that the, the emerging or the not yet created needs its own space and needs plenty of space sometimes.
00:10:03:20 – 00:10:27:10
Speaker 2
And and one of the things that we find is sometimes, quite difficult terrain is enabling the time honored, not to be sucking all the energy and the and the finance and the resources and the expectations, and giving enough space for something that’s going to look very different, to have the space to just just gently note, be nurtured and grow.
00:10:27:12 – 00:11:05:22
Speaker 2
So, my absolute our ideal is this mixed ecology, this blended ecology, where the time honored, the inherited is, is gaining insight and energy and, and renewed passion from, from what’s being formed that’s new, that’s fresh. But, but, and and the, the new is, is gaining insight from the ancients and not, not becoming untethered. So it’s completely rooted, you know, within our one holy Catholic, apostolic church, all of that, but recognizing that they do need space, that they are different forms of of enterprise in a sense.
00:11:06:01 – 00:11:26:11
Speaker 2
And that’s something that we’ve been playing with quite a bit and that I try to talk about in the book that they we want that mixture, we want the blending, but they do need that space as well. So it seems to me it’s quite an art form to try and try and live in that ecosystem and enable those habitats to grow and develop, healthily.
00:11:26:13 – 00:11:50:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, that leads us very nicely into the second chapter eight, which is about integrating, a mixed ecology. And so that if the first chapter is the why question, why mixed ecology? This is much past, much more of a how question. And again, you give some helpful, thoughts there. You use three R’s to talk about, what is useful to see.
00:11:50:20 – 00:12:04:12
Speaker 2
And then you have I think it’s a journey. Through some garden metaphor. So I don’t know if you if if yeah, you can take my cryptic question and, we’ll build on that a bit.
00:12:04:14 – 00:12:34:14
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah, I really sort of live in metaphors, like, my whole life is a metaphor, I think. So let’s start a is to share a metaphor, to help to explain. Now, so I think you can see mixed ecology or blended ecology as just a collection of things that are sitting alongside each other, maybe like a fruit stall or a, you know, a greengrocers or whatever, or supermarket section where they’re all in different boxes or, or you can see how actually they’re you can identify their shape and their identity, but they’re doing something together like a fruit salad.
00:12:34:16 – 00:12:56:12
Speaker 1
So in a fruit salad. Yeah. The flavors are richer together, but you can still see and taste the individual apple, orange, whatever. And the health. An analogy of a fruit salad is when I was teaching online in the pandemic, I would teach on mixed ecology with our students. And, we actually realized we could make fruit salads in the lecture because we all at home, which you can’t do in a lecture hall.
00:12:56:14 – 00:13:21:01
Speaker 1
And what was fascinating was every fruit salad was different. People cut the fruit differently. They choose different flavors. Some don’t work as well as others. So the integrative mixed ecology will look different everywhere. It’s the sort of ecosystem of ecosystems in that sense. But the idea is that actually maybe there’s that there are connector points between, so these three R’s are firstly, recognize or recognition.
00:13:21:03 – 00:13:40:23
Speaker 1
It’s the founding block is about being really aware of what else is around you in a sort of a, the emotional space. It’s very easy to get stuck in all denominations or, you know, in our local networks and, you know, there’s something in that isn’t there, but actually there’s a whole load of colonials going on that’s probably at our fingertips.
00:13:41:00 – 00:14:09:19
Speaker 1
And even if it’s really different to what we would do and we don’t agree with the way it’s done, it’s still recognizing that, okay, that is someone else. That is their expression of church. There may be some boundaries of what doesn’t make something church, but generally with the boundaries and the second, it’s resourcing. Say again, the integrated ecosystem will only work if we have a sort of sharing economy or a not about system, but, you know, it’s a more open market.
00:14:09:21 – 00:14:26:06
Speaker 1
You know, a really simple example. If you’re I know people used to run, a fresh expression that was a market stall or fresh expression. And, and I’ll talk about exactly how it works. But they had a stool, the weekly market, and that was their way of connecting with the community and doing stuff that they needed tables and chairs to do.
00:14:26:06 – 00:14:46:03
Speaker 1
This and the local and heritage time on a church had a load of stack of tables they didn’t need on a Saturday morning, and so they learned them. Super, super simple analogy and it’s more complex than reality. But how do we just share what we have a bit more? And then the third is about resourcing. So it is about resilience.
00:14:46:05 – 00:15:03:13
Speaker 1
Which is a key block. It’s really hard to do this stuff. And it’s a huge journey for everyone to go on to do, I think. And so we need to build in levels of resilience. You know, what happens when we hit a crisis knowing all sort of weaknesses or Achilles heels so we can overcome those.
00:15:03:13 – 00:15:26:16
Speaker 1
And actually then it cuts down all the sort of negative stuff that can probably spin quite easily. So that was one thing. And then, yeah, I create something called the the Mixed Ecology journey, which I suppose is inspired by the Fresh expressions journey. In some ways, but offering a different way. And it’s an approach that you can work your way through them to begin to grow this sense of integration.
00:15:26:16 – 00:15:48:07
Speaker 1
So really, really quickly, it starts with noticing, where you’re just doing some unbiased, noticing what’s around it, then moves to giving to think about what could you possibly give away? I can refer to my diagram in my book for this because it was, gathering so and I found myself writing about tents, sort of really informal spaces that we can meet.
00:15:48:07 – 00:16:12:10
Speaker 1
So not just going to the big church down the road because they’ve got the biggest space, but maybe it’s a cafe or a, green or a community hall just to get to know each other. Connecting or the connected points that we that we can actually help each other. So if someone turns up to one expression of church and actually turns out it’s not for them, how good are we at saying, you know what, actually, maybe try this other type of church down the road that’s quite painful and hard.
00:16:12:12 – 00:16:33:00
Speaker 1
Setting the narrative of scarcity and then collaborating. We can move to that space doing things together. And the ultimate is co-creating. Is there a way of different church leaders from different approaches, actually creating something together that brings that difference? That could be that fruit salad.
00:16:33:02 – 00:16:53:23
Speaker 2
Thanks, Leslie. Anything to say in response to that? I think it’s great stuff. This. I’m, I’m really enjoying listening to it. This is crossing all of this. I think it’s great. And, you know, from the Methodist point of view, what? I was, just trying to tap into, about our founding story was this, this ability that Wesley had.
00:16:53:23 – 00:17:15:02
Speaker 2
John Wesley had to see the both. And rather than the either or, to hold things together. The, the at the time, other people wanted to drive apart, you know, to say that, yeah, we we we can we can honor that which has been our tradition. But look what God is doing over there in a completely different way.
00:17:15:04 – 00:17:47:07
Speaker 2
And and how can we how can we, join that together? So where’s the sense of connection? Where’s the sense of partnership that we can develop? So, you know, I think I think, yeah, we are singing exactly from the same hymn sheet and the wondering the eye of about our Methodist movement is how our pattern in history of circuit, where groups of churches are grouped together, could actually be a really effective container for developing riches far beyond the time honored churches that we’ve inherited.
00:17:47:07 – 00:18:20:10
Speaker 2
To say, what is that? That that God is doing it in different ways in intent, tabernacle in, in the gathering spaces that are ours, but also in the third places that we can go and be a guest in, with partners, with folks from other denominations. So the we are just looking at a whole vast array, a fruit salad, all of the, where where can we find the places where God is doing something and celebrate that and bring that in to the the ecology?
00:18:20:12 – 00:18:43:09
Speaker 2
That’s developing. Yeah. So, yes. Good stuff. Great. Just want to encourage and of my niece who, watching or listening to this, whether you’re watching a recording or whether you’re watching, this live, do feel free to comment on the video. If you’re watching it live, we’ll be able to, perhaps respond to those, but, if you’re even watching recording, they do feel free to comment.
00:18:43:11 – 00:19:04:09
Speaker 2
Wherever you’re finding, this content, the third chapter, Ed, is, about inhabiting a mixed, ecology and, what does it mean to, to dwell or. I think you use a phrase, what does it mean to have a posture of inhabitation, and context where we are perhaps we want to unpack that for us a bit.
00:19:04:09 – 00:19:14:11
Speaker 2
I know you draw on some of the writing that people have done about space and place, and I think that’s really helpful thing about what does it mean to dwell in the places where we find ourselves?
00:19:14:13 – 00:19:32:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think the idea of rootedness as well, was that a key in this thinking? And I think I was thinking along the lines of, if we’re going to do this hard work because of sharing and living alongside each other in different ways, and that difficult, gifting that can be there sometimes in accepting, we kind of have to understand the other people.
00:19:32:00 – 00:20:11:22
Speaker 1
We need to understand ourselves. And if the whole of the ecosystem can understand itself and kind of find its rootedness or its, inhabiting, actually it makes for a much more authentic journey and conversation and partnership. So I was always really inspired by George Ling’s book, The Seven Sacred Spaces, which I think you published about four years ago, perhaps, where he looks at the seven monastic spaces, they things like refectory, cloister, chapel and so forth, and really argues that actually, generally the church has got stuck in chapel mode, which is a sort of gathered, more sort of platform stadium approach where someone’s at the front and we’re sort of invited to
00:20:11:22 – 00:20:35:02
Speaker 1
join in, and then reflects on, in a more pioneering fresh expressions, approaches which are much more in the sort of refectory space around food, conversation or the cloister, the bit in the monastery, which was the connector space, I think of cathedrals that have cloisters. It’s where informal things happen on the way from one thing to another, which is very pioneering, isn’t it, because you’re alert to the spirit.
00:20:35:04 – 00:20:54:13
Speaker 1
And I was inspired by that. To think, okay, what could you could we could use that as a firstly to work out to describe who they are. So by using these in that work and, and maybe challenging the ecosystem to those in the ecosystem to think, well, perhaps I need to do more than chapel. And for those who are really say in refectory, maybe I need to not just do that.
00:20:54:13 – 00:21:16:05
Speaker 1
There’s other richness to draw on. But then I also thought perhaps we could use that as a way to understand the missional context that all of our churches are written. So for getting into them, right, about how, you know, well, what are the chapels of today? And they let me go into a film or we things sort of broadcast stuff on online, even YouTube in a way is, is, was a chapel.
00:21:16:05 – 00:21:37:12
Speaker 1
We’re all tuning in, we’re watching, we’re dispersed, but we’re, we’re, we’re listening to someone talking about something. All kinds of ways. And so by sort of understand and the spaces that we are in our churches and the spaces in our communities, we begin to be more, inhabited, in the places that we’re in really.
00:21:37:14 – 00:22:00:19
Speaker 2
Great. And, and literally when, when we talked about that in the book and having read your book, you talk a little bit about the streams of Methodist tradition, of holiness, of grace and gospel, and there was some resonances there for me sort of comparing these two things and what your thoughts are. Yeah. Absolutely. I think I was trying to do my own observations around how we as Methodists have become very chapel centric.
00:22:00:19 – 00:22:22:14
Speaker 2
And, you know, this, this Sunday morning at 1030, all gathered together has become the main and dominant mode where naturally, my my reflection on, John Wesley and the founding story of us as a movement was actually the, the, the extraordinary way in which John Wesley was able to make grace the central feature of what was going on.
00:22:22:16 – 00:22:44:13
Speaker 2
So as I, as I talk about in the book, he created different spaces for Grace effectively. So he was out in the field, and proclaiming the good news, enabling people to respond that prevent and grace in the ascendancy in that point. But he knew that if he just, offered, Jesus, to the crowds.
00:22:44:13 – 00:23:10:03
Speaker 2
And they responded, but then he had nothing for them afterwards that he might as well. Well, you said it would have been better not doing that at all, actually, because he just created the vacuum. So what he very quickly recognized was that he needed to create other spaces for grace. So the band, the small group of people, the class, and then the society meeting where people could grow in grace and grace was the the real hallmark.
00:23:10:03 – 00:23:37:18
Speaker 2
I think of that rise of the movement that people were open to grace, and they were responsible in seeking to grow in grace. So I think the thing that I try and talk about in the book is about creating spaces for grace. And they can be of all sorts of different ways. As long as our focus is on how can we be opening ourselves to what God is wanting to do in our lives, in our community, together as we grow in grace, growing in holiness?
00:23:37:20 – 00:24:12:08
Speaker 2
And so, yeah, there’s loads there’s loads of crossovers, I think, into all of that. But stuff that it’s talking about there and and for me within the Methodist movement, just that really refocusing on saying that there’s that there’s a whole range of ways in which we can grow as God’s people, and we can be Michelle, as God’s people, that if we’re open to God’s grace and see that as the the resource that we need above all else, I sometimes say within our Methodist world, you know, we’re so anxious about running out of money, running out of time, running out of resources, running out.
00:24:12:09 – 00:24:35:19
Speaker 2
People are so anxious. We are an anxious church. The one thing we’ll never run out of is God’s grace. God’s grace is always going to be available to us and if we can just focus on on being open to God’s grace to see what God’s grace is doing amongst us in spaces of grace, then then all, all things become possible for us, and all things become possible for our mission, I think.
00:24:35:21 – 00:25:01:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, and the diversity in the way that grace is ministered or expressed in all those different places that we’re inhabiting. Alyssa Edwards talking about, it’s really, really interesting that, the next chapter, if you talk about, leading a mixed ecology and particularly, and sometimes it’s where the rubber hits the road, okay, it’s all good talking about this and having these wonderful metaphors, but how do you implement this?
00:25:01:20 – 00:25:22:06
Speaker 2
And then you talk a little bit about the different roles, for those who are, who are leading, those who are leading in a way that they are pioneering, but also those who have a role, a different type of leadership role, which is sort of an oversight role in terms of expand a bit about that. And so leadership in general in, in the mixed ecology.
00:25:22:08 – 00:25:38:23
Speaker 1
So I think, perhaps it’s good to zone in on what we might call the mixed ecology minister now, which I think is a phrase I might have coined actually in an article in the Church Times, but I’m running with it, in the sense that there might be people who are called to do different things at the same time.
00:25:38:23 – 00:26:02:21
Speaker 1
So someone needing a traditional or running time on an expression of church and they’re running a cafe church for a messenger, they’re doing BCP 8:00 in the morning, then running a similar drop in thing in the afternoon. And so it might be, yeah, you’re a practitioner within the mixed ecology. So you’re wanting to lead out of both the spaces and you’re really interested in the connection between the two.
00:26:02:23 – 00:26:21:19
Speaker 1
And I think I’m a mixed ecology minister. I love so cathedral worship and beautiful choral music, but I also love thinking of amazing kind of crazy off of the whole digital things or, you know, experimenting or whatever. So there’s something about that, you know, is that there are people around and, and for years and years people have been doing that.
00:26:21:19 – 00:26:49:18
Speaker 1
It’s not a new thing. But again, naming it might give people more agency and permission to do that. But I think there are others who, you know, perhaps they’re the you know, that the the leaders of the existing churches, in parishes, in dioceses in circuits, you know, wherever you find them, who are not necessarily called to step into the planting or pioneering role, but they’re brilliant at the time, honored space and they need to keep doing that.
00:26:49:20 – 00:27:11:11
Speaker 1
But actually, they’re the person givers who can release the people. I can often lay people in their churches, or always who then need to go and be a pioneer, be a plant, a dance, a fresh expression to. So the two things and the people kind of hold it together all at the same time. Then there’s the overseers. He he would give permission, but then you’ve got the practitioners in those overseer spaces.
00:27:11:11 – 00:27:30:23
Speaker 1
So the overseas role there is to spot them, help them if they know, signpost them to training or vocation things to help people understand their role or their calling. And then I allow them to do it, which then leads us all into things like the gifting and the resourcing and the nature. Seeing it, it all kind of enters into into that space.
00:27:30:23 – 00:28:05:14
Speaker 1
So in this chapter, I also was writing about four different questions people could ask themselves May what’s their why? Where are they called in that for for access. We talked about earlier. How are they going to approach things? They’re really drawing on the spectrum of the replication, adapting, innovating. But also I added in curating, sometimes it’s about being a particular inherited language, being given what you’ve been passed on, doing something brilliant with it, growing it, and then you might pass on to the next person.
00:28:05:16 – 00:28:22:21
Speaker 1
Understanding your what so you know, what kinds of things you tool to start and then thinking about where you’ll reach, which gets a bit more complex. But, you know, are you there for a short amount of time or a long time. So I think you just recognize there are lots and lots of different types of leaders in the ecosystem.
00:28:22:23 – 00:28:25:08
Speaker 1
And again, supports recognize that.
00:28:25:10 – 00:28:52:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. I love, the language of co-creative leadership, but she sort of coin it in, in the chatter as well. And that sense of we often think about singular leaders. But this the fact the sort of leadership sits in different places and that we are called to create with people, not do stuff to people I think is, is really, really interesting and, I won’t ask you about it now, but, I’ll point people back to the shop.
00:28:52:03 – 00:29:15:23
Speaker 2
Fresh expressions w k slash shop where you can get a copy of the book. Because you talk about launching and landing and some other sort of useful things that will, it will be able to take and practically implement, or at least, be inspired by, as they, they what? Listen, any thoughts? And I know you wrote a chapter on leadership in your but, in for the revive us again just.
00:29:16:00 – 00:29:37:02
Speaker 2
Yeah, I did and I think, you know, the the Methodist church has got a rather interesting, history, really, about what it’s done with leadership. We started out as, primarily a lay leadership where of late that that was one of the extraordinary things about the early Methodist movement, this explosion of lay leadership from often the working classes.
00:29:37:04 – 00:30:03:09
Speaker 2
And the mobilization of them effectively. And then and then gradually over time, that leadership has been professionalized and become, you know, much more invested now in its ordained ministry, with a slight lesser lack of confidence, we might say, in a lay leadership. And I was arguing, really for a, a resulting back of that so that, the local lay ministry can be key again.
00:30:03:09 – 00:30:28:20
Speaker 2
And, that role of oversight, the ad refers to that role of oversight in circuit ministry can be about equipping, enabling, enabling some co-creation, imagining, you know, advocating for all of that stuff that desperately needs to happen, I think, to see, that explosion of led ministry, which I believe is its Methodist best best feature and the best contribution we could play to the wider church, actually.
00:30:28:20 – 00:31:09:09
Speaker 2
So, yeah, I think, you know, it’s a really interesting story that the Methodist Church has been on. And, I’m just I’m just encouraging us to, to have a look back at how it was when it was a real great movement and say, hey, let’s just have a look at all that again. Yeah, I think that’s I mean, it’s a hopeful conversation we’re having just is, you know, I do think this conversation about mixed ecology, it’s not, it sort of says, let’s take the best of, of as the new, the time honored, and, it’s yeah, it’s about refining and renewing and rediscovering the sort of original charisms.
00:31:09:11 – 00:31:30:01
Speaker 2
And so putting them in a, in a way that’s relevant to today. And, you know, I’m always hopeful, as we have these sorts of conversations about what the church is and could become, just one more chapter, and which was shaping, a mixed ecology. And, you said you a, a metaphor type of guy.
00:31:30:01 – 00:31:48:16
Speaker 2
And there’s a metaphor that you use here, which you use to talk about what it means to shape a mixed ecology. And it’s, a metaphor of a reserve. So I think you might have to explain that to us as you explain. So what does it mean to shape a mixed ecology in a context where we are,
00:31:48:18 – 00:32:04:09
Speaker 1
In one of my. And I was a parish priest in London, we had a nature reserve in the parish right next to where we lived. And I was part of a team who were trying to sort of overgrown help it to get back to what it needed to be. So that was in my mind. So yeah, we’re using the analogy of a nature reserve.
00:32:04:11 – 00:32:21:19
Speaker 1
It was trying to think about not so much how do we grow the experience of churches, but how do we grow the idea in reality of the mixed ecologies, it’s a slightly different. It’s been it’s a really they’re there five things. So you need the trees, you need new things to grow so that those are the visionaries.
00:32:21:19 – 00:32:47:17
Speaker 1
You need the people here who often are at the edges of life. They, you’ve got the ideas that pop feel. They listen to you very much. But they that the prophetic, the Sentinels, they need to be there that that somebody to spark the idea. But that in itself is just nothing’s going to happen. If that’s all that is, there to, then, you need something to create the boundary around the reserved and even nature reserve that marks it out as something special.
00:32:47:17 – 00:33:10:15
Speaker 1
You can’t build on it. You can’t put past the middle of it. You can’t play football. And similarly, we need to protect these spaces so that, others don’t trample through them and just sort of destroy what’s emerging. So the next thing you need are supporters. They’re not necessarily doing the work, but they’re there to sort of hold the line, not provide money, permission, and the stuff.
00:33:10:17 – 00:33:35:24
Speaker 1
Then, you need the pollinators, the bees, as things start to grow. These are the advocates. So they might be similar to visionaries, but they’ve caught the vision and they’re excited and they’re just spreading it everywhere. That the people who like to chat, they pass it on, and it begins to filter through the community. Then I think, you know, you might in this analogy, you might need a beehive, the place of resourcing.
00:33:36:01 – 00:34:01:24
Speaker 1
So you might need facilitators. So people who are perhaps coaches who are really good at helping people think through, okay, we’ve got this great idea we’ve all got on board, some of us anyway, how are we going to make this? What do we need to do? What are the next steps? They’re pretty key. It’s quite practical. And then lastly, fifthly, you’ve got the practitioners, the people who are actually leading churches starting churches, but they’re living out there embodying, inhabiting the mixed ecology.
00:34:02:01 – 00:34:18:00
Speaker 1
Maybe it’s an overseer practitioner, mixed ecology minister, or whatever. And so, I mean, it’s all quite theoretical because no one’s really done it. So it’s a bit tie in this day, but if you’re great, the next level is people to test it and do it. And then this research. But the combination of these things I think help it to grow.
00:34:18:00 – 00:34:25:10
Speaker 1
It just won’t happen on its own. It’s too big a journey just to suddenly happen. So I think these five things might help it to do that.
00:34:25:12 – 00:34:47:11
Speaker 2
Yeah. That’s great. I love the, the energy and that image of the nature reserve. I was in a conference recently and they got in a museum curator. Otter. And so what can we you know, what you bring to people from completely different, contexts to see what we can learn. It was like, what can we learn in the pioneering church context from people who curate museums?
00:34:47:13 – 00:35:09:08
Speaker 2
And, you know, there’s an interesting question about what is it that we want to hold on to, to remember, from the past. And you know, what’s what’s most important? How do we prioritize what we’ve got in order to, to make those prominent? So there were some really positive connections, but the idea of a museum, and church sort of fills me with dread in terms of.
00:35:09:14 – 00:35:32:02
Speaker 2
But we we don’t want a museum. But what we do want is to preserve something, but to preserve something that continues to enable and to be a space that gives life, and and energy and creativity. And so that imagery of the nature reserve, I think, is a really, really positive one and helpful one to think about in terms of church.
00:35:32:04 – 00:35:49:10
Speaker 2
Let’s see, how do you respond to so the other is still there. It’s great. Yeah. It’s great. I was just thinking about the, I refer in the book to the danger that we’ve had is the church is sometimes thinking we can re-engineer our way forward. You know, if we just get another initiative out and it’ll be okay.
00:35:49:10 – 00:36:26:15
Speaker 2
And the machine will work better with all the rest of it. And actually, we need to be reminding ourselves and and that sense of, knowing our why, what we’re about here, and why why we are community and why, why, yeah. Why we’re here, is absolutely key and and I think then as you were talking about that nature reserve, you know, it was just coming to me again that that thought that I have for our circuit being that container, I sometimes described my my dream of the circuit as being providing a canopy and a safety net within which all manner of things can flourish.
00:36:26:17 – 00:36:58:13
Speaker 2
And you’ve you’ve described it so eloquently in terms of what, what might be helpful to have within that, within that canopy and the safety net. But I think where I think we’re aspiring and dreaming of the same sorts of thing, this creative space where all sorts of things, are emerging and feeding into each other and being encouraged and, and, and, you know, it just to me, it just it’s just such a wonderful image of what could be, but it’s not to be engineered by us by by coming up with an initiative.
00:36:58:13 – 00:37:12:17
Speaker 2
I think it is about something for us to be co-creating and ever so ever so, sensitive to what God’s Spirit is seeming to do in our midst and, being prompted by that.
00:37:12:19 – 00:37:22:00
Speaker 1
And just to add to that, I think Steve still but rewilding the church, which I also referred to here, is actually not know. It’s letting it unfold and not overengineering it.
00:37:22:06 – 00:37:44:07
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. I it’s in a conversation the other day about woodland and, the, the nature of the, you talked about the canopy, Leslie and this or the forest floor. And we need to be paying attention to what new life is emerging on the forest floor. If the forest is going to survive when those older trees fall.
00:37:44:07 – 00:38:14:23
Speaker 2
But those that the existence of those older trees does provide protection, and also the resource for that new life to flourish is, the, you know, as a visual image that that woodland with ferns on the, on the forest floor. And, just as you talk about mixed ecology, that part of what what what comes to my mind now, we often think about gardens, but actually that, that sort of natural space, I’m just going to, we’ve had one question from, watch or listen to show that on the screen.
00:38:14:23 – 00:38:38:11
Speaker 2
And then I’m going to come to you after this. I looked at, Tim’s question. To, to any final thoughts as we wrap our conversation up. But, Tim, yeah, I’ll ask the question. Reflecting on links seven spaces. Where does mission leaving being sent and pioneering fit into the spaces? I don’t know, if that that’s,
00:38:38:13 – 00:38:43:15
Speaker 2
So, yeah, something you can think about. At,
00:38:43:17 – 00:39:05:19
Speaker 1
Well, I think pioneering fits into, like we already said, I think easy often pioneers in the, cloister space refectory. I think mission is in all of it, in the sense that the commission should be involved in all of those different things. That library or scriptorium is also an interesting one. It’s not just a it’s not just academia.
00:39:05:19 – 00:39:28:21
Speaker 1
It’s about knowledge, wisdom, digging into gold. There’s also the sense of smell, which probably would be one of the hardest, I think, for people where you’re on your own, it’s where you wrestle with the tough places. And so I think the sense of, you know, the pioneer needing to be in the cells sometimes, sometimes point is, are all we’re all on the because we’re active, busy ideas people.
00:39:28:23 – 00:39:53:23
Speaker 1
But I think the cell might be the thing that gives the fuel, to mission to being sent out. So I think that is it is attempting to think of it as a monastery where it’s all in a walled community. But that’s not the idea is the analogies is describing being in the world. So, you know, the cluster is your local town center, the swimming pool, you know, the service station on your way into, you know, we we always bump into the same person.
00:39:54:02 – 00:40:01:18
Speaker 1
It’s the in between. So I think it’s stretching it, seeing it as, as mapping your community rather than within a walled, community.
00:40:01:20 – 00:40:36:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. Anything to it to that. Let’s layer. No, I don’t think I have really. No, that’s just that’s helpful. Yeah. Thank you. I thinking, recently about the, the cell and how it my I, like many pioneers, quite activist in nature. And can run after one shiny thing after another. And I think for me, the cell is a space of, of contemplation, of consideration, of reflection to make sure that what I’m doing is aligned with what God’s calling me into in the places he’s needing me to be.
00:40:36:17 – 00:40:57:21
Speaker 2
So I think, yeah, for me, that that cell is, I think, many pioneers, that is a sort of reflective space that we need to inhabit if if they’re not just going to think, you know, we can create for the sake of creation rather than being obedient to the call, of God. On this, we we had another question.
00:40:57:24 – 00:41:25:04
Speaker 2
I will take that one more, and then we will, wrap up with some some fun thoughts. A Ben, when thinking about making space for the new so that mixed ecology can thrive and flourish, how critical is developing a trust bridge between legacy and the founding inherited and pioneering and, Ben’s place of the secondary. So let’s go now, what my address should look like in a clerical institution.
00:41:25:06 – 00:41:29:05
Speaker 2
Just. I’ll leave. Yeah. Any thoughts?
00:41:29:07 – 00:41:49:01
Speaker 1
You. Well, I think the first thing I would say is the the journey, the basic stage of the journey is the trust bridge. It takes time to build the trust bridge. So I think in working through those stages. I think. Yeah. Did you catch what I said? I might have fell out for a second. Yeah.
00:41:49:03 – 00:42:07:02
Speaker 1
The journey, the blended, the first impression, the mixed ecology journey is the, is the trust bridge, I think. I think working it through allows that to grow. But I think, yeah, I finished the book by talking about institutions and the need for people to catch the vision and to give permission for this. So I think it can be difficult.
00:42:07:02 – 00:42:29:24
Speaker 1
And that’s where the nature reserve is hopeful. Not in any way to run down institutions, because I think they absolutely have that place. But sometimes the institution can and take staff, make it over, operate it, have too many expectations, overload things or ignore them. And I think the boundary keeps it safe and that in putting it in place can also help to build their trust.
00:42:30:01 – 00:42:31:04
Speaker 1
It’s a good question.
00:42:31:06 – 00:42:51:03
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. And this is tension. And I think you talk about it in in your book as well, Leslie, about when you talk about rejuvenating a movement and also going back to the and how do we have this sense of movement and of, of church, this sort of, you know, there’s two things, we’ve got yeah. I don’t know if we’ve got any final thoughts.
00:42:51:03 – 00:43:13:08
Speaker 2
We’re coming into this or close now. So any final thoughts about the conversation that we’ve been having. Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that that sense of trust, that trust is absolutely key isn’t it. And and trust that’s founded on always being clear about our why why why are we why are we and who is God calling us to be?
00:43:13:10 – 00:43:39:10
Speaker 2
Which is beyond am I am I in the time honored or am I in a pioneering place? You know, who who is God calling us to be and why? Seems to me fundamental questions. And if we all have that shared, value and understanding about that, then we can start to articulate more clearly about the, the, the different enterprises that perhaps where were parts of that are seeking to, to flourish and become blended.
00:43:39:12 – 00:44:04:07
Speaker 2
So it’s it I think having people who can speak can speak the language and translate across is absolutely key. Because often pioneers get stuck, I think, in not being able to know how to speak to the time honored and, and vice versa. So it needs the translators in the middle, I think. I don’t want to oversimplify, but I think what Ed’s done is fantastic in terms of, you know, giving a lot of nuance to all of this.
00:44:04:07 – 00:44:15:16
Speaker 2
But I think those translators who can advocate across is really key as well. Final thoughts that.
00:44:15:18 – 00:44:51:11
Speaker 1
Final thoughts, I think, like I said before, I think in one when I was writing this, I felt it was quite aspirational and there were not many examples. I mean, there are feet, but there was a limited number examples of this in action. So I guess my final thought is, not about this book, but about, you know, the wonderful people using the work of Leslie and others and me as well, could catch the vision and start to see where the connections are between and celebrate the difference which can be hard, but that that could change our narrative of, scarcity into a narrative of abundance, which is a much more reshaped narrative and
00:44:51:11 – 00:44:52:24
Speaker 1
is a twisting narrative, isn’t it?
00:44:53:01 – 00:45:31:06
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. And and just as you say that, I’m thinking, actually, we’ve had 15, 20 years of, of pioneers sort of finding their voice, and building confidence. And in a way, some of them have had to find a space beyond the church in order to, to grow in that confidence. But I think actually bringing that confidence back into the conversation within the church, creating this space for mixed ecology, where they they know who they are and they know what they can bring into the to the church, I think would be it would be I’d love to see mixed ecology growing up in the Baptist context that I inhabit.
00:45:31:08 – 00:45:50:16
Speaker 2
I would love to see see more of that where, the local church becomes an umbrella for all sorts of creative possibility, or a nature reserve for all sorts of new life to emerge. And, I think pioneers have a lot to offer, but we need to recognize that we need one another. The church needs the pioneers, and the pioneers need the church.
00:45:50:19 – 00:46:11:18
Speaker 2
A great place to end. We’ve got future author conversations coming up. So, do look elsewhere on, our social and on our website to find out details of those or to catch one of the previous author conversations. But, Leslie and Ed, thank you very much. And don’t forget to pick up, one of the books or perhaps play for them and have a good read.
00:46:11:20 – 00:46:13:23
Speaker 2
Bless you. Take care and see you again.