James Shelton shares how ancient monastic rhythms and pilgrimage routes are revitalizing Christian community in rural England, offering spacious, Spirit-led discipleship beyond traditional church settings.
Show notes:
- Guest: James Shelton
- URLs:
- Episode host: Mark Robinson – fx Comms
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
Update about James: He’s just relocated to the north east
This is an automated transcript and may not be fully accurate.
00:00:02:12 – 00:00:23:11
Speaker 1
This is the Mission Shape podcast. These are the stories of ordinary people walking with God and forming new Christian communities that fit their place. Their people and their purpose.
00:00:23:13 – 00:00:33:08
Speaker 1
Okay. Good morning James. Or rather. Good afternoon. We are. We’ve already established it is afternoon, isn’t it? Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for coming on. How are you doing?
00:00:33:10 – 00:00:35:11
Speaker 2
I’m well. Thanks. Thanks for having me along.
00:00:35:13 – 00:00:58:24
Speaker 1
Good stuff. So, James, we we don’t really know each other. I always really like these conversations where I’m going in. Almost completely blind to the conversation. Because it means I get to discover and go on this journey with our audience of of hearing about your community and and what it is and, and all that stuff. So let’s get into it straight away, if that’s cool.
00:00:58:24 – 00:01:06:09
Speaker 1
And what you tell me a little bit about you and then tell me a little bit about your, your community.
00:01:06:11 – 00:01:32:23
Speaker 2
Thanks, Mark. Well, I’m Reverend James Shelton. I’m a curate serving in the Church of England in the Waveney Valley, which is the bit of, East Anglia where Norfolk meets Suffolk. So it’s a very interesting belt of land, sitting along the River Waveney. And I moved here about two and a half years ago. I’m in my final, phase of of quasi my formation as a priest.
00:01:33:00 – 00:02:00:02
Speaker 2
And, here on serving a ministry that encompasses eight parishes and and simultaneous to this very traditional form of ministry to kind of country past and getting in amongst the communities I’m serving on a Sunday. But equally getting to know people around the villages and the towns, pioneering a new ministry, linked to pilgrimage and monastic lives.
00:02:00:04 – 00:02:26:05
Speaker 2
And, and that’s partly informed by some of the features of life here. So when I came here, I knew that there was an old convent, All Hallows convent in Daejeon. It was in the process of being reimagined. And there’s a long history to that. We might unpack that a bit further along in our conversation. And but there’s also a pilgrimage route that passes not just the convent, but runs through a number of the parishes that I’ve been sent to serve.
00:02:26:07 – 00:02:48:13
Speaker 2
And as someone who’s walked a lot of pilgrimages in my life, that’s been a very formative part of, my own personal journey is faith and call to ministry and, someone who’s also lived in a monastic agency. I spent a year living in the community of Saint Anselm, an ecumenical community based at Lambeth Palace. I was back in 2018, 19.
00:02:48:15 – 00:03:07:19
Speaker 2
I have these these kind of experiences in my own life that feel tailored to this context. So when I rocked up here, I spent a few months just kind of surveying the landscape, getting to know people, but very much sense there was something, to be created with it. And fortunately, I was enabled to move within my curiosity.
00:03:07:20 – 00:03:37:15
Speaker 2
The garden is cottage at the old convent, and the last 18 months I’ve been leading this ministry. Pilgrims, which, broadly speaking, is an exploration of the spirituality of pilgrimage and monastic forms of life and prayer. Very generous, open setting, inviting people of faith, of some faith, of no faith to come along and explore together. These themes under that, that headline banner.
00:03:37:17 – 00:03:38:17
Speaker 2
00:03:38:19 – 00:04:09:18
Speaker 1
That’s awesome. It’s interesting because, I think we’ve been, we’ve been seeing there’s, a real comeback to pilgrimage where the act of pilgrimage is ancient, right? People have pilgrims have existed in as much as long as pioneers have existed. There have been pilgrims, people journeying to places of spirituality. And, we’ve we’ve had a couple of people I’ve had the pleasure of chatting to on the podcast who do pilgrimage in, in different forms.
00:04:09:18 – 00:04:39:09
Speaker 1
So it’s really interesting that we’re drawing out this pattern through the podcast of, again, another ancient practice that sometimes people would dismiss, but actually saying people are really, really engaging with it. Yeah. So what’s what do you what do you say to that? In a sort of in a 21st century context, how does it what do you think has given this sort of rebirth to the the art of pilgrimage?
00:04:39:11 – 00:05:10:02
Speaker 2
That is quite a question. What has given birth to it? Well, I think you’re and spots on in saying that there is certainly a kind of reemergence of pilgrimage. I would say certainly within the Christian church, across denominations. My sense is that there’s a, a real openness to the practice of pilgrimage, and that is no doubt informed by simply one person and another person, another person taking a pilgrimage and bringing back the gift of that experience and sharing with others.
00:05:10:08 – 00:05:36:21
Speaker 2
And then you do get this kind of reverberation of concentric circles across the Christian landscape about the value of pilgrimage. And so I do think that’s happening. But I also think simultaneous to that, there is something of a kind of emergence in the mainstream about the practice of pilgrimage and no doubt that’s an that’s something that we are seeing in kind of settings like television and radio.
00:05:36:21 – 00:06:08:13
Speaker 2
If you think about the BBC series that’s been running the last few years, pilgrimage, that sort of sends people who are well known off on a pilgrimage and, and follows the course of that journey. They’ve been really interesting to see. But also I think I’ve noticed more and more, the kind of, organizations that underpin our society encouraging more and more and the practice of getting out amongst nature for physical and mental benefits.
00:06:08:13 – 00:06:44:23
Speaker 2
And, and I wouldn’t say that that’s wrong. I think that there’s lots of initiatives that are encouraging people to get out and walk. But I do think that certainly a Christian understanding of pilgrimage is, is is more nuanced than that. So I think it’s a really helpful stepping stone and maybe is encouraging people to come to that kind of intersecting place where, going for a walk with some kind of intention that is grounded in, a governing understanding that something is happening that is beyond just going for the practice of a walk and where we can draw huge amounts of meaning and learning that informs our daily life.
00:06:45:00 – 00:07:07:20
Speaker 2
I find it all really quite captivating. I think that’s definitely the intersecting place that this ministry I’m meeting is, is meeting people. And and this is creating a, a very, as I said earlier, kind of idea in general setting that people can come along and they can they can draw on the invitation of that pilgrimage. For their own purposes.
00:07:07:20 – 00:07:43:04
Speaker 2
But what I do often see is that you have a different group of people every time, and strangers quickly become friends. There is something about the the kind of quality of space that pilgrimage opens up that enables conversations, but also inner conversations of real depth to take place. And although the pilgrimage, as I’m leading people on at the moment, our day pilgrimage is, it never feels plastic in the sense that I’m really trying to pass on the principles that a long pilgrimage teaches the pilgrims.
00:07:43:04 – 00:08:13:20
Speaker 2
So if you go and walk for weeks or months, what are the things that you’re being taught and how does that inform your life? And if you’re a person of faith, your discipleship. And that is a very enriching thing. And I’m seeing people, it is not just the kind of theoretical thing I’m saying. People come to a new sense of perspective on their own life, but also perspective of faith and the actually, in truth, I haven’t always seen on a Sunday in church settings and the kind of conversation in depth that happens on a day pilgrimage.
00:08:13:22 – 00:08:45:24
Speaker 2
You know, I can’t even say I have seen that in every church I’ve been in, and I might have been alongside those people for, you know, months or even years. So there’s definitely something about pilgrimage. The space to opens up that is, is really quite compelling. And in terms of, you know, wanting to pass that forward. And it definitely has huge missing mission, no opportunities for the church at this particular moment in time where I think people may not want presents at the church for, you know, for reasons that aren’t known to them, they might just come on a pilgrimage.
00:08:46:01 – 00:09:00:07
Speaker 2
And in that space, that generous open space, the spirit can really do amazing things. And I know that first hand. I’ve seen it so many times in other people’s lives. So that’s really what inspires me to continue with pioneering this.
00:09:00:09 – 00:09:31:21
Speaker 1
It’s I think it’s that word space, right. Of of providing space is, is so important. I was just this morning chatting to a friend about, my I normally go ride my bike on a Friday, go out mountain biking, and sometimes I, I, I toggle between trying to nail that climb and getting up at the best possible time, or getting that downhill and getting all the jumps nailed and all that sort of stuff.
00:09:31:21 – 00:09:54:13
Speaker 1
And I get competitive with myself, and then I get anxious and stressed, and it’s only when I return to that space of, actually, now why am I doing this? Is because the thing I love about the most is the time I have with God when I’m just on bits, a single track going through, it’s not too tricky, it’s not too hard, and it’s just time to stop and breathe that space.
00:09:54:15 – 00:10:24:07
Speaker 1
And it’s so important, especially in our Western culture, that is driven, by so many other things of the world to actually stop and give space. And I recognize as well that that thing that you say about how on a Sunday and I think most of the most of the main denominations will recognize this, that the regular Sunday service doesn’t always give the space for people to stop and take time.
00:10:24:09 – 00:10:50:01
Speaker 1
And certainly, again, a you and I both in familiar with Anglican systems, and, and a regular Sunday service. There’s, there’s a lot of stuff to get through, but actually giving space is really, really tricky. So having the time and the bravery to give space and dedicate and encourage people to give space is both challenging but so rewarding.
00:10:50:01 – 00:10:52:00
Speaker 1
I can imagine as well.
00:10:52:02 – 00:11:14:14
Speaker 2
Tish, I think, the practice of pilgrimage really strips you back and you take a long walk and you’ve shared a lot of things. I mean, I mean, metaphorically, the act of pilgrimage speaks so powerfully and mean. You’re carrying everything on your back and you quite really you quite quickly realize things that you need to carry and the things you don’t.
00:11:14:16 – 00:11:46:22
Speaker 2
And the principles that I mentioned earlier, that are kind of embedded through the experience of pilgrimage in the pilgrims own kind of journey, very spacious principles. They are the principles of freedom of silence and of simplicity, you know, of slowing down and of taking your rest, of connecting with something far deeper in terms of, spiritual lives.
00:11:47:03 – 00:12:28:02
Speaker 2
And releasing that in the life of Christ is what I would say. You’d expect that the most important entry point in, in in that principle, but also the principle of sharing, of drawing alongside people for a stretch, maybe listening in a really generous way, maybe being able to say how you really feel because that person is a a stranger who you’ve just met on the way of all of these principles and are perhaps made more powerful if if we meet them with a sense of spaciousness where we’re really kind of breathing out and where we’ve kind of allow the things that need to fall to the ground or need to be shared, for that
00:12:28:02 – 00:12:52:07
Speaker 2
to happen. And, you know, having walked a number of very long pilgrimages, I often speak about how a pilgrimage can be characterized, in my experience, in three different ways. You kind of have to first embrace physical test, and you realize how the body is an incredible thing, how it adapts very quickly to the stresses and strains of daily walking and long distances.
00:12:52:09 – 00:13:18:12
Speaker 2
You also recognize your need to like, pay attention to what your body’s telling you and to rest. And, you kind of become attuned to this kind of amazing kind of physical rhythm. Then you have to embrace the emotional dimension because things will surface in that space. And if you’re brave enough, which I think we will need to be in our lives to to actually pay attention to what’s going on, I can be a really cathartic and healing thing.
00:13:18:14 – 00:13:51:13
Speaker 2
And then finally, there is this kind of like spiritual dimension having come through the physical and the emotional, there is undoubtedly something, that resonates almost in a way that is difficult to put words to, that that can inform the rest of your life. And, and of course, those things don’t happen always in a linear way. The Holy Spirit is at work and there’s something about unlocking, the significance of of walking ways that many pilgrims have gone before have walked, that, you know, the sacred ways.
00:13:51:15 – 00:14:10:24
Speaker 2
The spirit has kind of encountered people in those places in the past, and the spirit continues to encounter people in all the ways that we read about in Scripture. I know this, and I see it and I trust it. So pilgrimage is like the space, perhaps, where we start to be awaken alive to the work of God in our lives.
00:14:11:01 – 00:14:22:02
Speaker 2
And that’s why it can be utterly transformational, not just for the journey of life to be, but perhaps also in shaping our understanding of life in its entirety as a pilgrimage.
00:14:22:04 – 00:14:33:11
Speaker 1
Nice. Wonderful. Yeah. You mentioned them. You mentioned before at the beginning about sort of the aspect of monasticism.
00:14:33:13 – 00:14:34:09
Speaker 2
00:14:34:11 – 00:14:36:11
Speaker 1
Tell me a little bit more.
00:14:36:13 – 00:14:39:09
Speaker 2
Well, yeah it is. And I go to that one.
00:14:39:09 – 00:14:41:22
Speaker 1
Well it’s just, I’m just giving you this in for questions.
00:14:41:24 – 00:15:03:00
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean in my own life, I kind of reached a point where I was a bit early for a time and I was destined to be a football commentator. So this was this was my, my, my life and my work. I wanted to to be a football commentator. So after actually studying music, I kind of launched into a career in radio and communications work.
00:15:03:02 – 00:15:22:18
Speaker 2
And, and I was really doing quite well on that, on that trajectory. But I got quite poorly. And, and it, it required me to actually slow down, actually. And during that time I went along to a church and, I was told about this BBC documentary that was that was on the TV at that time. It was called The Big Silence.
00:15:22:20 – 00:15:43:21
Speaker 2
So I went home and I watched it and I watched all three episodes. I think it was back to back. Some people listening might, might remember it. It was a a documentary that was and presented by Abbot Christopher Jameson of Worth and Abbey. He’s written extensively on on translating the monastic life into the mainstream. He is an excellent author.
00:15:43:21 – 00:16:06:16
Speaker 2
If you’re able to read or hear him speak. And this just spoke profoundly to me. I couldn’t really tell you at the time what it was about, but it was the beginning of a thread that was pulled through my life across the next decades. And and I actually then found myself, you know, going back into, a job in communications in the football industry.
00:16:06:18 – 00:16:29:10
Speaker 2
And I then later did an MBA, which I didn’t see myself doing, but and a couple of years into that, I met Christopher Jameson by chance at a festival, bought a couple of his books, didn’t read, and so I was doing an MBA, and it was only later, a couple of years later, that I found myself at Felder Brennan in Wales when I had a bit space to read one of those books.
00:16:29:16 – 00:17:04:24
Speaker 2
And it was a few weeks later, after what had felt like years of kind of preparation for something, I, I saw a job at Norwich Cathedral being advertised, and it was because of all of that long, kind of thinking. And I said to buy a hot draw to the monastic line. But I was able to speak about how in perhaps taking on this role at Norwich Cathedral and promoting the place as the marketing manager, I’d be able to in some way, extend an invitation about a place that was an antidote to this kind of noisy, fast paced way.
00:17:04:24 – 00:17:25:12
Speaker 2
We were living. And I was able to draw on that book of Christopher Jameson. And I think actually, I was being formed in Shakespeare to say the right things, because that job felt utterly like it was for me. And I did that for a number of years, and it was remarkable time in my life. And I started to ask deeper questions about like, why is it that this seems to be going so well?
00:17:25:13 – 00:17:46:22
Speaker 2
Because in truth, I’m not really someone who loves social media. I’m not following like the marketing trends. What is it about this? And I start to ask deeper questions. Now that job had opened up an awareness in me to this new initiative that the Archbishop of Canterbury had launched the community as an answer, which again was on that monastic theme.
00:17:46:24 – 00:18:12:10
Speaker 2
And I sat there in this chair thinking, well, I’ve just taken this job that I know for the first time in my life, really, I know I’ve been led to this. This is for me at this. It’s got to be for someone. So I wanted to promote it, but it was a number of years later, I reached another point in my life where I was starting to ask deeper questions, and I realized that that thing that had resonated so deeply might have been because it was form for me.
00:18:12:12 – 00:18:33:08
Speaker 2
So I, after a long period of discernment across 18 months, I put down my jobs at Norwich Cathedral, and I was also announcing on the football pitch at Carrow Road for Norwich City. So I had to the best jobs going in Norfolk put them down and I went. Having applied and gone through this discernment process to live here with the community of Saint Anselm.
00:18:33:12 – 00:18:57:13
Speaker 2
And that was about ten years after I’d first watched that documentary so deeply. And, you know, I could sit with you over a pint and talk through some of the details up, but it would spoke about this majestic way that the Holy Spirit pulls the threads of our life, draws on the things that we’re interested in and passionate about, perhaps before we even know it ourselves and and make something majestic of that.
00:18:57:15 – 00:19:30:17
Speaker 2
And I went and lived this year in a monastic community. I served as a chaplain at Saint Thomas’s Hospital, having been trained formally for that. And I came out the other end, and believe it or not, I did a year of project management for the Church of England in their Fresh Expressions department in working with the Greenhouse Initiative, and I was drawing on all of the insights and wisdom, if you like, since the mission shaped church people thinking, how do we help fresh expressions to become more sustainable and multiply?
00:19:30:18 – 00:20:07:20
Speaker 2
And it was in that moment that I started to pay attention to the language that was being used, both within the Greenhouse Initiative, but also within some other initiatives within the kind of other church resourcing church growth initiatives. Sometimes these things can kind of be put at loggerheads. But actually I started to see consistencies across the board. And when I came out the other end of having gone through the discernment process with the church and theological formation at college, I kind of knew, like all these experiences around monastic life and pilgrimage could come out in the wash again, because I’ve seen the way that spirit works.
00:20:07:20 – 00:20:30:01
Speaker 2
Opportunities is drawing on our experience. So and coming here as well as pilgrimage, I was I think I was ready to kind of extend forward all the gifts that I had received, because that year living in a monastic means it was it was an exceptional experience. So I added rocket fuel to the questions and the the things that were kind of going on in my inner life.
00:20:30:03 – 00:21:12:00
Speaker 2
I’m still living that out, really. I’m pioneering something that is seeded something, for beyond my curiosity, whether it’s that I’m going to be here or whether it’s the I’m learning something that I take elsewhere, I don’t know, but I think this kind of, this kind of, intersecting place where the monastic meets pilgrimage is one that there’s a huge amount to be derived from, because, of course, monastic life is also about very much slowing and adding attention to the small paying attention often to to the hidden, the inner workings, the inner lives going deep to our roots and looking at how we we water, intend our own soil before the grave comes above the
00:21:12:00 – 00:21:38:24
Speaker 2
surface, and how what happens above the surface is how entirely linked to what goes on beneath the surface. I mean, the elastic life is so powerful and the metaphor is in the experience. So some people might be thinking, what on earth is James talking about? And other people might know entirely what I’m talking about, but it’s often in that experience of like slowing or putting things down, of stepping into the spaciousness of that way of life, and also exploring different approaches to prayer.
00:21:38:24 – 00:22:05:01
Speaker 2
International wise, amazing things can be unlocked. And that’s really what I’m trying to do in this ministry, is to kind of open up the space where we explore different approaches to prayer, different spiritual traditions of the Christian church over time, pilgrimage being one of them. And there are lots of, intersecting moments between those two traditions, but that can really profoundly like speak to this current moment.
00:22:05:01 – 00:22:26:10
Speaker 2
And I think from my heart, I mean, I am doing something fresh, I suppose, to use inverted commas, but I’m also doing something that’s drawing on tradition. And I think the way that I would, would, would frame this ministry is it draws on something that I had Shane Cable mentioned once. I don’t remember who he was referencing again, but this is not my image.
00:22:26:10 – 00:22:51:04
Speaker 2
Just to, just to do this, but put it at the feet of those who actually brought it to my attention. And he said, the difference is like the difference between being in like a canoe and a rowing boat. In a canoe. We can see the direction we’re going in, which is forward, and we can see the vision for what we’re trying to do, but we can’t necessarily see the way that we do.
00:22:51:05 – 00:23:27:04
Speaker 2
When we’re in a rowing boat. In a rowing boat, we’re still moving forward, we’re still moving in that direction, but we’re looking backwards from where we’ve come. And he said it’s the difference between a canoe in a rowing boat. A rowing boat allows us to take the gold from our past, the gold maturation as we go forward. And I just have a feeling that pilgrimage and monastic life are two of those kind of golden themes of our past and our tradition that, if we use wisely, can be very fresh and invigorating for the future of faith in the landscape of this, this country, certainly.
00:23:27:06 – 00:23:31:15
Speaker 2
And I guess I’m trying to make my own small contribution in that way.
00:23:31:17 – 00:24:19:01
Speaker 1
It’s funny how, again, some similar themes come up around language. I like what you what you said a, a few moments ago about realizing that different parts of this, the of Christendom, use different language, but really it’s the same stuff. And we’ve seen that where in some ways we know that we’ve probably been guilty of advancing language in ways that might not have been helpful for some, and also in ways where we’ve been wholly misunderstood by others and to our frustration sometimes when it’s like we’re all trying to move to the same place, but then coming back to to this again, this, this other thread of, the simple thing of, of
00:24:19:01 – 00:24:44:13
Speaker 1
connecting the, the ancient with the modern, because we worship a God who is timeless. So it doesn’t matter to him whether we’re doing something ancient or whether we’re doing something very modern. What matters to him is that we’re with him and spending time with him and acknowledging that we, by our very nature, the fact that He’s God, has created all of us very individually.
00:24:44:13 – 00:25:10:18
Speaker 1
We all have different needs and ways of coming to him. And it’s what I love about this movement of fresh expressions is that I see people who have, across the board, just will, will find it so difficult to connect to God in different ways because of their circumstance, the way they’re made, whatever it might be. Why do we make it hard for them, and why are we always so?
00:25:10:20 – 00:25:40:07
Speaker 1
Prone to trying to to make it efficient and make it the same and do all that again, not to not to to sort of, criticize the, the, the main denominations because again, there’s value in all of that. It’s both and, but it’s really exciting to, to remember that these are ancient practices. I wonder if you could tell us we’ve talked quite a bit about, some of the theory behind it.
00:25:40:07 – 00:26:04:20
Speaker 1
It tell us it for a couple of minutes, if you could just. What is it? What’s the practically look like for you? So when you’re doing pilgrimage with a monastic flare or a flare of monasticism, whatever, which way you want to do it, how? What does that look like to the people that you’re doing that with them? And what does that look like from a discipleship point of view?
00:26:04:20 – 00:26:18:19
Speaker 1
And what does that look like from a point of view of someone who may not have any relationship or interest of a relationship with God? Yeah. How does that how does that unfold?
00:26:18:21 – 00:26:51:10
Speaker 2
I’ll do my best to try and describe it, because the the truth is, it’s really in the experience, and I can do my best to describe how I, frame a pilgrimage and kind of make my own contribution to creating that space. But it really is something that looks and is a composition of every person who arrives that day, what they each bring it.
00:26:51:13 – 00:27:21:18
Speaker 2
You can’t control those variables like the conditions of the pilgrimage are entirely, reflective of the detail of the day that it’s in the small. So people will arrive. And normally there is some kind of practices that we use to just hold the space. So in in facilitating the pilgrimage, I’ll always look to introduce the invitation of of the day, like, what is it that we’re, we’re walking with.
00:27:21:18 – 00:27:49:08
Speaker 2
Is there a question or some kind of theme or prompt? Across these 18 months of the ministry, we’ve gone quite deep into those seven principles I mentioned earlier, and now we’re kind of using them as a kind of interweaving feature. So the one that I let just at the weekend gone was, an opportunity to draw on the on the practice of sharing will think about the principle of sharing in the context of the summer we’ve lived, the spiritual summer we’ve lived.
00:27:49:10 – 00:28:16:18
Speaker 2
And in the context of the autumn or change that we are embracing. And of course, that draws on all sorts of and metaphors with harvest and, the kind of natural world and the seasons that we’re kind of walking in amongst and across the day will be probably a handful of opportunities to come together. We always stand shoulder to shoulder in a tight circle, and I’ll offer some kind of interpretation or reflection will hold silence.
00:28:16:20 – 00:28:35:10
Speaker 2
And then there’s always the invitation for people to to speak and reflect. And that’s where the kind of condition of the day is informed by the people who come and what they share is there’s so much wisdom in the group, and you can’t necessarily know what someone’s going to bring. The composition of the group is different every time.
00:28:35:10 – 00:28:55:22
Speaker 2
It’s not necessarily a church where we have the same people every time. That’s the amazing thing about this. It’s artfully led by the Spirit’s promptings, and that’s really quite exciting. At this point in time, no one’s trying to prescribe what this ministry should be or what is meant to be done. One beautiful thing about curiosity, and actually this thing about trying something, but it doesn’t involve any money.
00:28:55:22 – 00:29:19:15
Speaker 2
I’ve not had to ask for any funding. I just take people on walks and see what happens. It’s amazing. And then we always conclude that time of sharing and standing in the huddle, an interpretation silence, an opportunity for people to respond. And then we conclude with a short prayer, which is a prayer, of Saint Birgitta of Sweden.
00:29:19:17 – 00:29:45:15
Speaker 2
It’s a really simple prayer. And it goes like this Lord, show us the way and make us ready to follow it. And we walk, and sometimes we walk from that, huddle in silence. Sometimes we walk and talk. But that kind of framing ensures that it’s not just going for a walk and talking about what we’ve had for lunch that day and the.
00:29:45:18 – 00:30:19:15
Speaker 2
And yet it’s not to it’s not to, control. It doesn’t feel in the experience. You come along, you realize like, someone’s kind of holding this space for us, but actually we’re all making a contribution to what it’s becoming. And, that’s the best way I can describe it is really in the experience. But I do. One of the things that I find interesting is that in being able to explore and create in this way, I’m developing some resources that I hope I’ll be able to pass forward to others who maybe are in some kind of ministry, lay ordained a long pilgrimage ways.
00:30:19:17 – 00:30:43:12
Speaker 2
So there’s lots of established pilgrim ways in our in our country. If you think about the the Celtic ways of Wales and Scotland, the northern saints, where I am in no fixed and quite traditional ways of like the Walsingham way. People make their pilgrimage at Julian Shrine in Norwich. But I’m also recently commissioned as the chaplain to a new pilgrimage called Verba ata, which is Latin for a way of blessing.
00:30:43:14 – 00:31:05:10
Speaker 2
And there’s nothing quite like this pilgrimage on the landscape is the pilgrimage in the United Kingdom. As far as I can see, it is 450 miles. So it’s until I. I gave it is, it’s quite distinctive. It runs from Lowestoft most easily point of England to the westerly point of Saint David’s in Wales. And it’s about 15 years into existence, so it’s quite close.
00:31:05:10 – 00:31:28:05
Speaker 2
But people will not have heard of this pilgrimage. But every 10 or 15 miles, a waystation is being placed with a, an artwork or sculpture depicting a Christian biblical narrative. So people are engaging with the gospel as they walk. And, what’s been amazing is, of course, the ways had to be found. And all of these ways stations have had to be placed carefully.
00:31:28:05 – 00:31:54:05
Speaker 2
So there’s been this kind of emanation of blessing as creative people have made these amazing artworks, have discerned what they should be, what narrative from the Bible they should communicate. And, it’s still in the process of becoming established. But to come back, circling to my point, I’m now the chaplain to that. So I’m thinking about how the resources and the way I deliver these pilgrimages might inform others along similar ways.
00:31:54:05 – 00:32:14:12
Speaker 2
And certainly 450 miles worth of pilgrimage has been opened up by that past history. Parishes. Many of people, many of the people in ministry there, might be very interested in doing something missional but might be stretched. This is coming back to your initial question about also talking about the challenges those in ministry will know. It’s quite stretched.
00:32:14:14 – 00:32:33:09
Speaker 2
It’s in rural places these days where you have the multi parish benefits system within the American church. I’m talking now, but you know, so we want to do something missional takes a lot of energy, but perhaps I’ll be able to pass forward some of these resources, particularly if someone’s come along and had the experience. So they’ve done a little bit of the thinking and the practice.
00:32:33:11 – 00:32:52:05
Speaker 2
And they can roll that out where they are because of course they are drawing on their contextual features. A pilgrimage pilgrimage route that runs through their context. And I kind of feel that that’s another way that something is being seeded here, like maybe the pilgrims ministry could manifest in other places, drawing on the resources that are being developed.
00:32:52:07 – 00:33:20:04
Speaker 2
And, and in doing so, pilgrimage becomes not just something that in inverted commas, the secular world is drawing on, but also we can, you know, draw upon within the church, going back to our traditions and our roots in a kind of really gentle way, but also an unapologetic way of grounding in Scripture. And that’s the last. It looks like the framing of the day always, always integrates something of of Jesus teaching and of Scripture.
00:33:20:06 – 00:33:41:10
Speaker 2
And it’s always that kind of invitation of people if they would like to consider that. But it’s a space crucial to, to, facilitate that space in a particular way. It’s like the culture, if you like. It’s the way it’s done. There seems to really, embrace people wherever they are. And it goes right to the heart of the first principle of freedom.
00:33:41:16 – 00:34:01:14
Speaker 2
So think about freedom a very positive way rather than a negative way of thinking. Like I’m free from being constrained, I’m free from bringing in prison or imposed upon. We think about freedom in a very positive way that I’m free to say yes or no to to everything. I’m given freedom in my life. I’m given choice, free will and so I can engage.
00:34:01:14 – 00:34:33:00
Speaker 2
Today, however, however I feel and deem and discern to be right on free and say often it’s that kind of really, really important understanding of freed. And that is the kind of cast list people stepping towards the offering. And in doing so, maybe the barriers that people bring or have experienced or the hurts they carry can just gently start to come down and people can go to the very heart of what it is that we believe as Christian people, which is is Jesus who he said he was, and if so, what does that mean for me?
00:34:33:00 – 00:34:54:15
Speaker 2
Everything else really is not lacking from that question. And the whole point of life is that we we, I think, can think about that question and answer it for ourselves. And if we answer it with a yes, that’s where the really amazing stuff happens, because God respects that freedom. And it’s in our yes, that I think the spirit really moves in our lives.
00:34:54:15 – 00:35:15:09
Speaker 2
And the thing do that’s what my life witness is to, you know, if there’s one thing it witnesses to, it’s that that moment, if you ask, is, is a profound learning, a transformation and really, really exciting things can happen. And and that’s really where I’m at now. I’m continuing to walk that way and trust that the Lord uses all of my own kind of humble contributions.
00:35:15:09 – 00:35:26:20
Speaker 2
And maybe that’s going to be to do with and this sweet spot of alignment where the parish and pilgrimage and monastic life is brought into conversation.
00:35:26:22 – 00:36:17:15
Speaker 1
Amazing, amazing. It’s, Yeah, it’s it’s really lovely to hear all that. Well, we’ll continue with this conversation as, as we’ve gone through. You’ve, normally I guide people with certain questions, but you’ve sort of addressed the usual questions that I ask about wellness and and keeping well and support just because of how your unique situation is. But also, I was intrigued that the almost the, the act of pilgrimage itself when it’s intentionally, intentionally leaning into Christ addresses wellness because wellness and mindfulness, some of the first steps of that is about being still and listening and hearing your body, hearing your mind, hearing all that stuff.
00:36:17:22 – 00:36:39:11
Speaker 1
And we’ve talked about giving the space. So that’s really quite unique, which is quite interesting. There’s a whole load of other stuff I would love to asking, but we don’t have time because we are well and truly at a time. And what I will ask you though, is, and I, I never failed to ask this question because I think it’s important there are people out there listening to this.
00:36:39:11 – 00:37:08:17
Speaker 1
What do you say to those people who it might be pilgrimage. It might be, I don’t know, starting at the, a regular football club with and with a bit of Bible teaching. I don’t know if people have some really brilliant creative ideas. And indeed, there are people out there who are who are engaged in doing, leading a, a Christian community that has a different flavor and might be thinking about something new or might be struggling.
00:37:08:19 – 00:37:15:01
Speaker 1
What do you say that might be inspiring to those people about doing this thing, doing these things differently?
00:37:15:03 – 00:37:43:10
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I would encourage people to, to, to to always remember or go towards the, in the dimension of all of this because it’s, it’s when we know who we are and here we are, not that we can really discern what it is that we are called to make in terms of a contribution to that, that body where we are all different, all called to be different parts of the one body.
00:37:43:10 – 00:38:02:07
Speaker 2
And I think if one thing that my life speaks to is, you know, creating space to do that work helps you to figure out, like where the sweet alignment is going to be, like where you’re going to be most effective. And that’s not to be affected. That’s just to be most alive. You know, the glory of God as he came in being fully alive.
00:38:02:07 – 00:38:20:04
Speaker 2
So I think before you decide what you’re going to do, make sure that it’s aligned to who you are. And if you need to take that step backwards first, do that. And that’s where going for pilgrimage is great. If you, you know, if you want to take a bit of time to really go to your roots and think, but who am I?
00:38:20:04 – 00:38:37:23
Speaker 2
And and what is the kind of what’s the kind of DNA, the golden nuggets of my DNA put into me, and where are the places I need to water and feed those things? Because what will manifest above the surface will be, you know, a reflection of all of that, that kind of in the lab and going on a long pilgrimage.
00:38:37:23 – 00:38:58:18
Speaker 2
I would always say, you know, that is a great thing to do if you get one opportunity in your life to take a long walk and take it and and do it is, you know, do it on your own or do it with maybe a close companion, but it’s amazing. It’s an amazing thing to do. And that’s all I can really say.
00:38:58:20 – 00:39:18:03
Speaker 2
About about pilgrimage, like do it, but and there are other ways of, of doing that kind of spacious and work that help you to get to the answer to that question, like, who am I? Who am I not? And, and therefore, who am I called to be? And when I’m being that person, where do I come most alive?
00:39:18:03 – 00:39:39:22
Speaker 2
And it normally is like a derivative of answering that question that you figure out, this is this is actually where God’s going to, you know, put me to use and, and also pay attention to where you are, you know, I’m here, there’s a convent, there’s a pilgrim way. So I’ve just said, obviously that kind of makes sense and I’ve run with it and it’s always beauty, not for something.
00:39:39:24 – 00:39:45:06
Speaker 2
If the context is ripe for it will make sense. So it’s there is a combination of, you know.
00:39:45:08 – 00:39:46:11
Speaker 1
Another thing.
00:39:46:13 – 00:39:49:12
Speaker 2
If you are in life and looking at the landscape of where you are.
00:39:49:14 – 00:40:17:18
Speaker 1
That fit in beautifully with sort of the the fresh expressions journey, where it always starts with listening to God, and where responding to where God is moving as opposed to just going in with an idea saying, I think this, but also appreciating sometimes those ideas that we have are ordained by God. But it’s just going in gently and listening and being sure, James, we are we’ve got to come to a close.
00:40:17:18 – 00:40:40:05
Speaker 1
We’ve got to wrap up. I, I always like it when I, when I get to the stage and I still have questions and I still want to go on and so maybe we’ll, we’ll have to do, another take two of this and follow up and certainly be interesting to hear from you in a year or two to see post accuracy where, where you’ve gotten to and, and what’s what God’s been doing and what’s what journey you’ve been on.
00:40:40:07 – 00:40:49:22
Speaker 1
So we’ll, we’ll make sure that we’ll catch up with you again. But for now, thank you for spending this time with me. And thank you for. Yeah, thank you for sharing your story.
00:40:49:24 – 00:40:51:05
Speaker 2
Thank you.
00:40:51:07 – 00:41:22:02
Speaker 1
Brilliant. Until next time, take care. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed that episode. If you want to dig a bit deeper, there’s loads over at Fresh Expressions. Lord Duke, things like godsend, our toolkit for starting new Christian communities, plus loads of other resources, worship ideas and real life stories. You’ll also find info about the gatherings we run throughout the year, books and resources in our shop, coaching and training for pioneers and for the leaders across denominations, dioceses, networks.
00:41:22:04 – 00:41:32:18
Speaker 1
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