Darren Middleton shares how Rev7, a high-end salon in Plymouth, becomes a safe, sacred space offering love, dignity, and transformation for people on the margins.
Show notes:
- Guest: Darren Middleton
- URLs: Rev 7 Hair.
- Episode host: Mark Robinson – fx Comms
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
This is an automated transcript and may not be fully accurate.
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:27:22
Unknown
Know I’m on. Hold on. This is the Mission Shape podcast. These are the stories of ordinary people walking with God and forming new Christian communities that fit their place, their people, and their purpose.
00:00:27:24 – 00:00:48:12
Unknown
Good morning and welcome to the podcast. And a very, very warm welcome to the amazing Darren. How you doing? I’m very well. Thank you. Mark. Very good. Lovely to be with you. It’s not as sunny down in the, Plymouth area as one would like, but it’s not raining. It’s dry. So, I’m. I’m kind of happy about that.
00:00:48:14 – 00:01:09:15
Unknown
Good, good. I can I can confirm. It is gloriously sunshiny. Is it over here in London? Yeah, it’s it’s it’s beautiful. It’s, Yeah. There was a bit of a rainstorm last night, but, you know. Yeah, it was a nice walk with the kids to school this morning. Probably short lived, but take the easy wins when you can, right?
00:01:09:18 – 00:01:35:15
Unknown
You take it when it shines, mate. That’s why I just make hay. Exactly, exactly. So, we met down your neck of the woods. Yeah. Gosh. A year ago. And then we did. We did, I think we were doing a pilot of sort of a regional hub of. Yeah, story and see. Yeah. And and you pull up a section.
00:01:35:15 – 00:01:58:02
Unknown
You told us a little bit about your community, which was fascinating. I remember talking to you briefly, then saying, yeah, we should get you on the podcast. It’s taken me over a year, but we’re here. So we have to talk about now because I, we’re eight months in. So, lots of stories, lots of things, successes, failures.
00:01:58:02 – 00:02:22:05
Unknown
Well, we don’t say failures, Mark. Actually, in, new people, new places. No, as Methodists, we say deep learning. Yes. Learning opportunities, of course. Of course. How short sighted of me for all the previous guests. If I’ve ever talked about failures, or if you’ve indeed talked about failures, let’s spin that around. That’s a nice learning. Yes, in the case, very deep.
00:02:22:11 – 00:02:48:07
Unknown
What if we. Why don’t you tell us a little bit? Yeah. Tell us about what your community is. Yeah. If you tell us the story of how your, your current context, your, your of the Methodist variety. And so tell us a little bit about that context, how you got into this and how your community came about, how it started.
00:02:48:09 – 00:03:24:03
Unknown
And and what it looks like. Right. So, we’re going back about three years, Mark. Well, four years now. I was on sabbatical and, it was coming out of lockdown. And lockdown for me was really interesting because I felt like my understanding of God during lockdown and some of my prayers and how I was approaching God and the ability to do some real learning and studying on concepts that I just didn’t have time to do as a presbyter in the Methodist Church before I suddenly had time to kind of give over to that kind of really focused reflection.
00:03:24:05 – 00:03:50:05
Unknown
And I went, I really looked at doesn’t mothers and fathers, and I looked at, Thomas Merton. And my theology began to change, so began to move. I was quite conservative and evangelical in my thinking and approach to God. I’m not saying any of that is changed in terms of, you know, my charisms in that, but my approach to God, massively changed.
00:03:50:07 – 00:04:13:04
Unknown
And I was just churched out. I was just absolutely church out, and I wanted something different. I’d been a chaplain in the military. I’d served with one RHD. I’d served with two nine Commando Regiment A, got my green Beret. I loved challenges, and I’m not saying that I wasn’t challenged by the church, but it wasn’t scratching my itch.
00:04:13:06 – 00:04:33:08
Unknown
And so someone was doing my wife’s hair in the kitchen, in the man’s kitchen. And she was part of the Military Wives choir down here in Plymouth. And, I said, oh, I’d love to be a hairdresser. An old friend of mine from my performing days, Herbert Howe, had his own hairdressers, celebrity hairdressers in Liverpool, and I grabbed her scissors.
00:04:33:08 – 00:04:49:03
Unknown
She went, well, you’ve just picked them up like a pro. I said, what would I have to do if I wanted to learn how to be a hairdresser? She says, well, go to college. It’s one day a week and in three years you’ll have done your NVQ level two and a VQ level three, and maybe they’ll let you do your barbering.
00:04:49:05 – 00:05:23:04
Unknown
You know, long story short, I did. I did just that the next day and I had no knowledge of hair whatsoever. I just wanted a challenge and to get my head out of all the kind of, Oh, well, there’s many things I could say. It’s the trouble of church life. And, it was great. As soon as I went into that salon, I realized that actually hairdressers are chaplains and there is massive missional opportunity in hair salons.
00:05:23:06 – 00:05:56:16
Unknown
And so for the next three years, four years as I was, training how to become a hairdresser, the imagination on how to shape something that could be church shaped kingdom shaped. I like that word better. Kingdom shaped, and using it as a touchpoint to get alongside people I found was exciting and really different. Also, so the stars aligned.
00:05:56:22 – 00:06:21:12
Unknown
Now, this is the good thing because I’m a great believer in synchronicity. So the end of my current appointment was coming to a close. And PMP, which is the Methodist initiative, new places and new people in church in the margins. We will come into our phase of funding and suddenly the stars aligned and everything, every door just went bump, bump, bump, bump, boom, boom, boom.
00:06:21:14 – 00:07:04:20
Unknown
And I pitched, a faith based hair salon community that seeks to support and reach to the margins so that the people who couldn’t access these services, whether, you know, economic means or emotional means or just don’t have the capacity to go to a salon, would be able to access it, and that we could lavish the love of God on them and in that relationship, just, be present, you know, in the military, we used to have a saying that said, you know, chaplaincy is 95% of presence for the 5%, maybe of God interaction.
00:07:04:22 – 00:07:31:05
Unknown
And I think that’s true. But what we’re finding with this is it’s the presence. It’s just about being real. I think that is a real, learning point there. You’ve got to be real and you’ve you’ve got to kind of, reflect the gospel in a very incarnated way where people don’t feel that they are somewhat detached from you, but actually it’s very much along side.
00:07:31:05 – 00:07:56:01
Unknown
So that witness, that presence that given us is absolutely key to, to what we do. So what do we do? We work three days a week in the salon. We’ve got it up and going. It’s very high end. It’s as camp as you like, which reflects something of my personality. It’s very stylish. And people who come in there feel very safe.
00:07:56:01 – 00:08:26:13
Unknown
It’s an incredibly safe space. And so I safeguarding policies are fluid, and they reflect something of the safe space that we try to create. And so people from all over agencies. So we’ve got we work with the Salvation Army, and hostel, the another hostel in Plymouth in Devonport we work with homeless charities, mental health charities. We work with rehabilitation charities for drug and alcohol misuse.
00:08:26:19 – 00:08:53:16
Unknown
And we work with women in refuge now for a woman in refuge to come into the salon and for a man, to do her hair. We’ve had texts from people who had a real problem with men because of the abuse that they have suffered. Said just to have Darren wash my hair has helped me make that first step on my recovery to having a positive attitude towards men.
00:08:53:16 – 00:09:18:09
Unknown
I mean, it’s just the stories are, far and wide. Mark, to be fair. But that’s what we do. And then on Thursday and Friday, it’s coming alongside with paying clients that help perpetuate the mission. So one of the things that we’re thinking, you know, is how do we how does the church of the future look missionary. So Paul talks about tent making, but how does that look corporately?
00:09:18:11 – 00:09:40:22
Unknown
Corporate tent making, where church does business in order to perpetuate the mission that it wants and seeks to be involved in? Amazing. Not a lot there. And I that’s a yeah, but it’s I mean, there’s this there’s so much there’s so much in there. I think there’s there’s very much to 2 or 3 points left to expand a bit on.
00:09:40:24 – 00:10:09:16
Unknown
Let let’s, let’s come back to the, the, the tent making, in a minute because I think that’s a really important part that the whole church needs to be looking at him for the future. And that’s come back more specifically with the on it. It’s struck me. And again, I remember just when we were when we chatted last year and you were sort of just you slightly brushed off that there.
00:10:09:19 – 00:10:36:21
Unknown
We did brush off there. Sorry. No pun intended, actually. Oh yeah. There’s an intimacy. Yeah. I guess with hairdressing where I think how you phrase it was, last year was there’s someone who’s stuck in a chair with you for an hour or 2 or 3 hours, and it’s not like, I know, for for me going to the barber.
00:10:36:23 – 00:11:02:09
Unknown
I, I go to these this, Turkish barber and, some of the guys are really chatty. It’s really, really great. But it’s never really anything real. And it’s, you know, my hair takes like, 15 minutes flat to do. But I know my wife and her relationship with her hairdresser. She’s in there for five hours, and they.
00:11:02:11 – 00:11:45:17
Unknown
My wife is often going deep. I think she’s constantly trying to be an evangelist to her own hairdresser. Mixed results over the years. But yeah, sorry, I digress. Tell me a bit more about that, that your take on these intimate relationships and this this idea. Yeah. Someone’s in a chair for many hours with you. And what happens in that space, I think I think first of all, so if I talk to you through the experience that we found, so looking at our Wednesday, our clients that come to us on a Wednesday who are beautiful, I’ve got to say, absolutely beautiful people, broken people, many with really my goodness, mind blowing stories just about what
00:11:45:17 – 00:12:11:10
Unknown
they have managed to survive through. And you can see on their faces when they come in, what they’re expecting is rejection. You can see it. There is an anxiety. There is this fear when they walk through the door. And I think, our aim is as soon as they kind of draw breath through that door, we are trying to put them at absolute ease.
00:12:11:10 – 00:12:34:22
Unknown
So we serve the best hot chocolate with marshmallows and lard. And I think it’s about being larger in life. It’s about being authentic. It’s about being real and within no lie within two minutes, the whole persona has changed. I remember someone coming in and she was so anxious and said, come on, sit down on the on the sofa.
00:12:34:24 – 00:12:59:20
Unknown
And I just, there was a lady because we’re totally safeguarded. There’s a lady who was part of the salon. Amanda, I can say her name because she volunteers with us, and she was a support worker for women in Refuge. And so she knows a lot of our clients. And so she’s out with it. And I just kind of knelt by her, and I said, you are safe.
00:12:59:22 – 00:13:20:19
Unknown
And I’m not just transformed. I said, now you are loved and we are going to lavish the best hair products on you. And we just took her into a totally different space. She then went over to the chair, and our chair massages you and the whole shebang lays you flat and you know, it’s that one of these all singing and dancing chairs.
00:13:20:21 – 00:13:49:24
Unknown
And she slept for an hour where she needed it. Where, you know, and other salons can’t do that, but we can. And just to see the transition of someone who is fearful and anxious into someone is joyful and then just feels an absolute million dollars as they walk out and their whole persona and confidence just has changed.
00:13:50:01 – 00:14:09:14
Unknown
It’s just such a gift. In fact, I see so much of God in them, you know? So much of God. What one guy, one guy said to me, he says, I’m going to meet my mother. Rev cos obviously Rev seven, they call me Reg. Rev and I need to look sharp. I said, I’ll make you look sharp.
00:14:09:14 – 00:14:33:15
Unknown
It says I used to be a junkie. That’s his words, not mine. And he says, but you know Rev, he says, being a junkie doesn’t mean that I’m a bad person. It just means I made bad choices. And that mark hit my heart. I said, right, you’re going to see your mum, you’re going to have lunch with a you’re looking awesome, brother.
00:14:33:16 – 00:14:59:01
Unknown
You’re looking really sharp. I said, let today be the day that you start making good choices. And just to have that depth of interaction with someone on the periphery, at the margins, who would never even consider coming through a church door, is essential to reaching people with the love of God. That’s it. The thing we hear over and over again, right?
00:14:59:01 – 00:15:24:08
Unknown
And in fresh expression circles, it is the people on the margins. And it’s it’s again, it’s not that I always feel I’m repeating myself with this. It’s not to knock the traditional established church know because because there is space for the beauty and tradition of all of those. There’s space for even the new styles of worship that are coming from evangelical circles or what have you.
00:15:24:10 – 00:15:55:12
Unknown
It’s it’s the beauty of the mixed ecology, right, that there is space for everything, where God works is in every nook and cranny and where fresh expression works is in those margins where there are gaps. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s really important to acknowledge and support, which is why we, we love these stories, is to hear stories where people who wouldn’t set foot in church, you know, and even part of my own journey that some people have heard this before, before returning to faith.
00:15:55:16 – 00:16:19:15
Unknown
You know, I grew up in a, in a sort of charismatic Christian, upbringing and walked away from my faith when I went to university. I just thought it was all rubbish at that stage. And my journey back to faith was I. I would not have set foot in a regular church at all. The idea would have been very.
00:16:19:17 – 00:16:41:15
Unknown
Yeah. Like it’s triggering for me in, in, in all sorts of ways. And again, I don’t want overdramatize, but I sort of saw that as it wasn’t I didn’t have a traumatic, event or anything like that to, to do with my story, but it would, I would not have gone come back to faith had the had the church that I started attending being in a regular traditional church building, for instance.
00:16:41:17 – 00:17:14:04
Unknown
And so it’s so important that we give space. Let me ask you about, the niggling things. I think I’m trying to think what’s what’s just of interest to me versus what’s really important. So I think what’s important is what is what does someone sort of, I guess, faith journey look like, you know, because I imagine you, you, you meet you’ve already said you, you meet a wide array of people, both from sort of the, the those people who get treated by you for free.
00:17:14:04 – 00:17:39:18
Unknown
And then you’re paying customers. How does that work? By. Yeah, in sharing Jesus with them. And what does that look like? And what does it look like to not only share Jesus, but take people on a journey through hearing about Jesus, maybe for the first time in a in a way that’s not combative? To maybe those people wanting to give their life to Christ.
00:17:39:20 – 00:18:02:06
Unknown
I think there’s a lot of concepts in that, that that took about three hours to, but, the rest, I think first of all, it’s our idea of discipleship. What does that look like? One of the remits that we had with New Places for New People was to reimagine discipleship. So what does that look like?
00:18:02:08 – 00:18:37:05
Unknown
Well, I think for me, it’s about transformation into Christ likeness. Let’s use some very churchy language. It’s that’s what that looks like. So, from a, a virgin perspective, that would be about ditching the ego and embracing the highest, truest self that I can possibly be in God that can only ever be found in God. However, that’s not something I have to sell or bring to anybody because God is at work in everybody’s life, you know?
00:18:37:07 – 00:19:08:16
Unknown
I’m I’m of the opinion that we’re all made in the image and likeness of God. Now, the ratio of ego, selfishness and and Christ likeness is in different measure in all of us, even from a day to day perspective. But I think if we can start to perpetually turn to the Christ within us, the God within us, the divine within us, then our choices, like the lad in the salon who said, now is the day to start, better choices become better.
00:19:08:21 – 00:19:34:21
Unknown
We become right because moment by moment we are perpetually turning to God and trusting God and coming into a relationship with God. So of course, the reflection, the outworking, the ripples of all of that will be a better life lived a more, a higher standard. Although wrong words. Please don’t judge me for using those words, but probably the moral standing of one’s life will will raise.
00:19:34:23 – 00:20:05:02
Unknown
And we start to see a bit of fruit from that transformation. So if somebody on a Monday morning goes on to a, a roundabout and gets cut up and gestures very articulately to the driver who’s cut them up, that’s one way of reacting. But if having journeyed with people of faith that on a set, you know, on another Monday morning, the same driver cuts them up and they are more patient, or they’re more giving a gracious.
00:20:05:06 – 00:20:34:08
Unknown
Then there’s a slight transformation there that’s more Christlike. Forgive the analogy, but, that’s what we’re looking for. It’s not about church attendance, although that’s good and that’s right. And that’s proper. But that’s not where everybody’s at. So how do we take people on the journey? I think the new pope, Leo the 14th, said something that stuck with me, and it was just a simple phrase, friends of Jesus.
00:20:34:10 – 00:21:11:10
Unknown
I’m a friend of Jesus. That doesn’t mean that I’ve got my life absolutely perfect. In fact, if you spend, well, a few minutes with me, you realize I’m probably, you know, like Paul says, the biggest single sinner amongst the lot. I haven’t got it right. But I think that vulnerability and that ability to say, I’m just like you and I’m trying to figure this thing out just like you, and make sense of spirituality, to come into an understanding with God and be on this faith journey just like you is, is absolutely key.
00:21:11:13 – 00:21:36:20
Unknown
I sat with a lady, who’s been through a lot of rubbish in her life, and she just started going to church with our lovely Amanda, who I spoke about, before, and she said, I just didn’t feel like I belonged. I just, I feel like an imposter. So we we started to talk about that, and I just was able to minister in that moment about the love of God and how precious she is.
00:21:36:24 – 00:22:02:09
Unknown
And I love she is, and I love what she is, and that God has the best as a God is your big, biggest cheerleader, pompoms and everything. I mean, God is doing the full dance routine on the sidelines of your life, cheering you on so that you can achieve the highest potential, with God. And and she got it.
00:22:02:09 – 00:22:23:05
Unknown
And she says, I want to be baptized. And I was like that. Okay, well, let’s walk, let’s walk a few months. Let’s start the journey. And so she’s coming to what we call a slice of heaven at Rev seven to see what was a nice cheesy, but this is spiritual exploration for all faiths. And, Mark. So discipleship looks like I don’t care what you believe.
00:22:23:10 – 00:22:43:09
Unknown
I don’t care if you don’t believe you are a human being made in the image, in the likeness of God. So let’s have a dialog. Let’s talk about the God you don’t believe in. Let’s talk about being a friend of Jesus. Let’s not use churchy words. Everybody knows what we mean by ego. Once we start talking about sin, people close off.
00:22:43:13 – 00:23:13:14
Unknown
But ego, I got one, you got one, we all got one. And I think it’s about giving permission for people to be who they are and to understand God. How they understand God. Because every single person, even in a gathered church who have a collective theology, dogma and doctrine, will understand God in a completely different way. So it’s about recognizing those things and not insisting that people, conform to present structure.
00:23:13:19 – 00:23:40:11
Unknown
But having a more fluid path where we can all just be so genius. I don’t know if that’s the right word. In in this faith walk that will happen in it’s reminds me of the idea which came up yesterday, actually with my daughter as we were talking about, translating languages because often we, we talk about language in, in fresh expressions.
00:23:40:13 – 00:24:00:23
Unknown
And especially for the operations team, we’re often talking about language because we, we work with so many different denominations, and different denominations have different terminology, different church language, if you like, for one thing or another. And it all means the same thing. But also it’s more important, I think, to to consider the language where we act as pioneers, we act as translators between.
00:24:01:00 – 00:24:25:05
Unknown
Yeah, sometimes the people that we’re ministering to and and and God we are we do act as this go between to try and translate and often maybe undo the translations is probably a better thing to to reinterpret for them some of what they’ve been told about themselves by either society or previous experiences of church that aren’t necessarily true, you know?
00:24:25:05 – 00:24:58:11
Unknown
So again, like you say, you using the word sinister in a certain context, immediately some people will turn off of that. Whereas talking about ego is really good. And what I was saying to with my daughter was I in I studied Spanish at GCSE level. And she was asking me to translate the word okay into Spanish and what that how you translate into Spanish was having to explain that the word okay in Spanish doesn’t work in the same way you don’t use it in the same context.
00:24:58:13 – 00:25:27:05
Unknown
And I think sometimes we forget that in, in our sort of discipleship journeys with people, it’s actually we really have to understand the context that that person is in. And that’s what we strive, we strive for, right? And in fresh expressions context is to be able to understand the context of the people that we’re talking to are because, again, we’re being they’re inviting us into their life, into their experience, into their their contexts, which is a real privilege.
00:25:27:05 – 00:26:00:14
Unknown
And we have to be gentle with that. But as you said, if you have good safeguarding and things in process, but also your your ultimate by creating a safe space where people can truly be themselves, which is essential, you know, What? Tell me a little bit about, the challenges, I guess. What what have been the biggest challenges for you in sort of running this running Rev seven and and what are the big hurdles?
00:26:00:16 – 00:26:28:23
Unknown
I think I think the biggest hurdle is, church structure, if I may say so. I think trying to fit the ocean in a symbol is nigh on impossible. Yeah. And yet we try to do that. I think we just need to grab hold of the thimble and throw it in the ocean, and then it will be thrown at me with the ocean.
00:26:29:00 – 00:27:05:08
Unknown
Simplistic analogy, I know, but, like, trying to, squash new ways of working into present structures is very difficult. And, and we are constantly buffeting against the sides of our present Methodist structures. If I’m honest. And, it’s not always helpful, but, you know, yes, I mourn constantly about it, constantly about that. But it’s the structures that we have, and we have to find a way of getting creative with those structures.
00:27:05:10 – 00:27:31:05
Unknown
And those structures shouldn’t prohibit the, the, the, the mission, they should facilitate it. And I think I am a bit of a thorn in the flesh. I’m a Yorkshireman. I speak my mind. And I probably say a lot of things that angels fear to say. But I try and do it. I’m not your diplomat.
00:27:31:05 – 00:28:00:21
Unknown
If you’re looking for a diplomat, it’s not me. But what I do have is passion and drive and fire to see people transformed by the love of God. And I think that’s is what drives me forward, jumping over the hurdles of church structure. So I would say it’s going to be a constant navigation, that I do in order to make Rev seven seem like it’s gliding.
00:28:00:23 – 00:28:23:03
Unknown
So it’s a bit like the swan swimming where it looks like it’s gliding, but its feet are going like below, underneath the, underneath the water. So that has been one cause of deep learning, and also in some of the minds of the powers that be and the legal structures that we have, this is a move ability that we’ve always done it this way.
00:28:23:07 – 00:28:47:20
Unknown
And we’ve dealt with that is a very well churched rehearsed, saying we’ve always done it this way, but unfortunately that mindset still exists. And so we have to have a change of mindset that doesn’t say, and I think that’s based in fear that you are doing your way of doing church is done. It’s that, well, that might be the case to people like me.
00:28:47:22 – 00:29:20:07
Unknown
But we need both, as you say, it’s this ecology of dependency. We are as much dependent on the traditional existing forms of mission and church, and we should be the prophets that speak into, those, traditional expressions of church. We look at the role of the prophet. They’re always on the outside. They’re always outside the city going off, as we say in Yorkshire, to the people inside telling them what God, you know, doing amazing dramatic actions of prophetic gorgeousness.
00:29:20:09 – 00:29:38:04
Unknown
I don’t think that’s in the Bible or said quite that way, but they are and they’re often dramatic, you know, I mean, you look at, Elijah in the, in the, in the desert, there’s only me laugh to not me. Well, I let’s I’m an absolute, you know, reality check. Yeah. That’s you know. Oh about the knee.
00:29:38:10 – 00:30:07:20
Unknown
So we are dramatic people and I think personality has got a lot to do with that. And God uses the personality in church. And, I’ve been told that I perform when I take a service, I perform, I don’t, but if I didn’t perform because I’m an old performer, then I wouldn’t be authentically me. And I think we have to get over ourselves and we have to, get over the the staunch religiosity that we’ve made faith and relationship with God.
00:30:07:20 – 00:30:41:20
Unknown
We’ve got to take it out of the stained glass and make it real again for people who are desperate to engage it. You know, what we hear a lot in Rev seven is I am spiritual, but I’m not religious. What do are they saying? I don’t? I think the church has a responsibility to to take that and reflect on that and then try and create a way in which we can talk through that back at them and say, well, actually, when you consider God is love, then we’re not a million miles away from each other.
00:30:41:20 – 00:31:10:03
Unknown
How we, And these. Yeah. It’s, again. Yeah, it’s it’s I think a lot of people resonate with that across all the denominations. And there have been these frustrations for pioneers. So, yeah, prophets, pioneers, all of those people, like pioneering by its very nature doesn’t mean that you’re in the center of things. You’re usually on the edge doing different things.
00:31:10:05 – 00:31:39:21
Unknown
And and I think it’s really interesting sometimes in certain circles, that knee jerk reaction of defensiveness. Right. That people if you dare to do something different, the immediate question is like, well, isn’t this good enough? It’s like, that’s not that’s not the question. It’s like, yes, that’s perfectly fine for that context. It doesn’t work for this context. And again, we’ve I think we’ve we’ve said it enough.
00:31:39:23 – 00:32:16:14
Unknown
In different episodes and talked about it in, in different things that, there are contexts where things don’t work. There are contexts where people will try stuff and, and it will work partially, but that if you try and replicate it, it doesn’t work meaningful over the sometimes it’s constant chasing for revival. Which I don’t think most people think of revival in healthy ways because I think they’re chasing an event rather than, try to replicate an event rather than actually what is revival?
00:32:16:14 – 00:32:43:23
Unknown
And, you know, there’s all the talk currently about this quiet revival in the UK at the moment, which is really interesting because it’s it’s not off the backs of people doing big initiatives. It’s these people, these young people searching God, searching for God off their own backs. It’s not, you know, and it’s all sorts of churches and all sorts of environments that are seeing young people seeking out answers to their spirituality.
00:32:44:00 – 00:33:16:10
Unknown
And I think as well to, to to respond to that. The commentary said, well, by people saying, because I’ve heard this so many times and I probably used to say this when I wasn’t a person of faith, that I was. Yeah, spiritual, but not religious, but I think in some ways sign that’s, to go back to what we said in the beginning is I think it is a sign of the church’s failings, and we need to do more as a church to turn those failings into learnings.
00:33:16:12 – 00:33:37:17
Unknown
And that’s really, really vital. And it doesn’t, you know, we don’t know. One progresses if you look at sailing and just think of it as like, oh, someone’s telling me I’ve failed. If you look at it say, well, what can we learn then we can we can move on. So that defensiveness that people feel, I think needs to just be transformed into this.
00:33:37:17 – 00:33:54:12
Unknown
Yes. But what can we learn? And it doesn’t mean that in your context over here that you are failing in. It means that people are seeing opportunities. And if you want to come along the right, that’s great. But if you don’t, you want to. You want to be part of the right. That’s okay too. There’s room for all of it.
00:33:54:12 – 00:34:19:17
Unknown
Well, there’s not room for us shooting people to have or sniping people for for these creative ideas that might not work or might be harebrained. Yeah. Or might be interesting, might not be, theologically fully aligned with one person or another. It’s it’s about following the spirit and seeing where God is moving right. It is an I. Yeah.
00:34:19:19 – 00:34:42:18
Unknown
I think, you know, I love saying I’m not religious when I’ve got a dog collar. Because, people kind of look very strange at you. But I mean, that in that in a real, in a real sense. And then we have a conversation. Conversation about what we, we think religion is. I think what people are, kicking against, when they say religion is about organized, institutional expressions of faith.
00:34:42:20 – 00:35:04:00
Unknown
I think that’s what they’re kicking against. But the more organic like, say, for instance, when I was a military padre, a soldier, we were we were out on exercise. We were looking over these, this beautiful vista, you know, in the outdoors in Salisbury Plain. And you and I’m not a religious man. I don’t go to church.
00:35:04:00 – 00:35:25:17
Unknown
He says this is my church. And we would just stood there looking over. I said, I like your church because it’s about connection. Religion should be the vehicle in which we get in that takes us into a relationship with God. But so often it becomes a self looking lollipop that has forgotten what it was there to do in the first place.
00:35:25:19 – 00:35:46:06
Unknown
And I also think, and I’m going to get a bit controversial, if I may, Mark, that’s Lord that God has a lot of people who the church do not have, and the church has a lot of people who God does not have. Now, what I mean by that is given over because there is no worse ego than one that’s dressed up in religious clothes.
00:35:46:08 – 00:36:09:14
Unknown
And I think we, we as human beings, regardless of faith, denominate, you know, denomination, whatever is our greatest war is ourselves. You know, Muslims would say the greater jihad is the one that’s fought within. And I think that’s absolutely true. The biggest battle that we will ever fight is the one with ourselves. In fact, the the wrestle of Jacob by the Jew River.
00:36:09:16 – 00:36:30:01
Unknown
You know, I often say, you know. Yes, it’s it’s, said that he he wrestled with God and that might be absolutely the case, but but there was a lot of self wrestling there, you know, he was he was scared. He was afraid of meeting Esau and what Esau was going to do to him. And he was isolated and alone and in solitude.
00:36:30:03 – 00:36:54:13
Unknown
So I think, I think, you know, there’s something about the the self wrestle and self-awareness that in churches, if we if we could become self-aware and recognize when the ego is kind of going well, I always do the flowers of the third Sunday and the and I am not letting Barbara do them. Well, that’s where’s Christ in the.
00:36:54:15 – 00:37:34:21
Unknown
You know, and I’m not saying I’ve got this right, because, you know, the other day I was getting all grumpy because something like me car parts was in the car, but we I don’t like I know we are human. We are all human. Whether we know Christ or not, we’ve all got an ego. And I think that if we all put ourselves just in that same place and recognize that we can be gentle and gracious with one another and actually take on that mind of Christ and that that beautiful, you know, let’s take on that mind of Christ, be like Christ as much as we can, knowing that the Holy Spirit is
00:37:34:21 – 00:38:02:02
Unknown
there to produce that within us and fight the ego within, then I think we’d get a lot further, regardless of who we are. I can’t think of anyone that would disagree with that. Absolutely. I can imagine people maybe saying yes, but and I mean, I think people are entitled to do that, but I would, I would, I would strongly urge people when you have that yes, words to say, what are the motivations?
00:38:02:02 – 00:38:36:17
Unknown
But yes, the but because yeah, there’s, there’s legitimacy of course to, to do that. Yeah. There’s, I think there’s, there’s a lot of people out there who have faithfully led churches and worked their backsides off to try and, and lead people and disciple people. And, and so sometimes. Yeah, it can be challenging, but getting our focus always, always having that focus on Jesus because ultimately it’s all it’s all about Jesus.
00:38:36:20 – 00:39:02:09
Unknown
It’s all about Jesus. And what the second it becomes about us, not just the flowers or the car park space, you know, or the the the sound not being perfect, or the feedback coming through the speakers, you know, just stretchiness. I mean, we make it about us as well, do we? I mean, my wife bought me a book one Christmas, a few years ago saying it’s not all about me.
00:39:02:11 – 00:39:22:20
Unknown
And and she was absolutely right. I’m trying to figure out how how you receive that. Thank you. I was like, oh, well, you know, obviously it’s it’s just that not everybody understands that. Yeah. It’s that’s maybe my mission, but, you know, I just a lot about that. But, you know, humility is not about thinking less of yourself.
00:39:22:20 – 00:39:51:09
Unknown
It’s just about thinking of yourself less and others more. And I think, again, we have to get that into balance because, some of the most gregarious people I know are the most humble. The, definitions of humility, I love that saying that says, you know, I’m very humble and I’m so proud of that, you know, I mean, it’s I think it’s like, I know that, you know, I’m so rubbish at so many things.
00:39:51:11 – 00:40:15:12
Unknown
You don’t have to convince me of that. And I know that my need for Jesus is absolutely ultimate and paramount. And that I can’t do anything in my own strength. I understand that, and I fully, I fully rely on God, but I’m not going to stop berating myself. I’m going to, you know, still be fabulous and marvelous as much as I can, because that’s my character.
00:40:15:14 – 00:40:35:21
Unknown
And at some times I just, I just that we push it away because it doesn’t seem reverent enough. And I think we need to get to a place in our churches that say, just come as you are. You know, we’ve put a lot of emphasis on, you know, sexual orientation. The church has tore itself apart. Not with that.
00:40:35:23 – 00:40:59:12
Unknown
Well, that’s not the most important question to my mind. The it’s not and it doesn’t have for me eternal significance at all. Do you know what I mean? Jesus said, you know, we’ll be like the angels, neither male nor female. So why are we arguing about that now? But it is about welcoming the stranger. It is about, being a place of refuge for the refugee.
00:40:59:14 – 00:41:19:04
Unknown
It is about feeding the hungry. It’s about clothe in the naked, and it’s about reaching out to the margins and bringing them into the center. That’s what Jesus was about. So let’s let’s ditch the stuff that we don’t need to talk about, and let’s put our weight behind the love of Christ, and that we do need to address.
00:41:19:06 – 00:41:41:15
Unknown
If I was Pentecostal to be shouting Amen! I’m not Pentecostal, so just quietly, I’m Anglican, so I’ll quietly say Amen. Yeah, I don’t the point is, well, I don’t know. I think I’ve gone I’ve ditched the walls of denomination. I think, for me, I love being a methodist and I find my home in Methodism because of the emphasis of grace, and that’s just something personal from me.
00:41:41:15 – 00:42:04:06
Unknown
I love drinking from the the Brook of Grace. That doesn’t mean we just have the monopoly on grace. It’s just I found my my home with the social justice element and justice seeking church within Methodism. But my denominational walls have just fallen down because I see God, a God as the whole of creation that I can’t even fathom or even begin to comprehend.
00:42:04:08 – 00:42:29:17
Unknown
And when I see that, I look not just beyond our Christian boundaries, but I look beyond our multi-faith boundaries. One of the things that’s really encouraged me over the years is that Jonah in Chronicles, is the one who God uses to draw up Israel’s boundaries. And then in Jonah, Jonah’s the prophet that God challenges to cross his own boundaries.
00:42:29:19 – 00:42:51:00
Unknown
Yeah, I love that. That just gives me a lot. Whoa. I got really excited about this. There’s a thing of we forget, don’t we? We? Because we talk about doing stuff in our own strength and relying on Jesus. And the obvious are obvious things about. But I always constantly see the thing of Jesus turning things on. It’s on its head.
00:42:51:06 – 00:43:13:14
Unknown
Yeah. You know, and and suddenly we can be really certain about things. And then suddenly God is like, nope. And sometimes that can be disconcerting, but it relies on us to lean in to what if, what he’s trying to do and where we’re coming to the end of our time. And so there’s two things I need to ask you about.
00:43:13:16 – 00:43:35:06
Unknown
One of the things I always ask every guest from whenever we’re hearing a story about their community, is it’s to acknowledge that for many of our listeners, pioneers, sometimes we have people who are new to pioneering who might be thinking of stepping out, and they’ve got an itch about doing something pioneering. They might have an idea, they might not know what it is yet.
00:43:35:08 – 00:43:57:02
Unknown
Some of our audience are people who are already pioneers, who may have been doing it for a long time, might be thinking of the next thing, might be struggling a bit. They might be just doing fine. What would you say to those folks out there to encourage them in their journey, in their pioneering journey in in in what God’s doing in their context?
00:43:57:04 – 00:44:35:23
Unknown
One of the things I think I’m just going to reach for my Celtic Daily prayer, because, Synod yesterday we were looking at, creating a new structure for some of the churches and societies and, and projects that we have within Ncpdp. And pioneering. And the name of that new circuit would be coracle, circuit, looking at Saint Bernard and his getting is 16 monks in a coracle and crossing over to seek the, you know, the promised land in North America.
00:44:35:23 – 00:45:15:11
Unknown
And, going over in this very little boat over the Atlantic sea and, some of his words I find incredible. So I’m going to encourage you with his words, not mine. So one of his prayers say, oh, Lord, I pray that in you I break ground both fresh and new. As a student, let me stand. Break the hardness of the land with your forgiving father and and for me, that that is a that is a pioneer’s prayer.
00:45:15:13 – 00:45:46:07
Unknown
You know that even in the darkness I have to trust. And if we are in the darkness, in a very little boat on a very big sea, and if it feels like that, please just take some time to reconnect with the initial calling that God gave you to do this work. Reconnect with the reasons why you’re doing what you’re doing, and let that fire, reignite within you and perpetuate you forward and simply trust.
00:45:46:12 – 00:46:14:09
Unknown
Don’t try and hold on. Let go. And, you know, God is the boat in which we sail. Wonderful. That is beautiful and wonderful. And, yeah, some wonderful words, some good inspiration. Darren, I’m sure people will be interested to find out more. Indeed, sometimes people are interested in potentially reaching out to you to to hear more about what you’re doing and how you’ve been doing it.
00:46:14:09 – 00:46:41:14
Unknown
They may be seeking advice on similar things. How how can people find you online or or what have you and what’s best for you too? So we’re on we’re on the socials and that’s Red seven hair on Facebook or Instagram. We also have a fab website now, thanks to Daniel Watson. So I’m going to give him a shout out there because he’s done an incredible job with all our marketing and brand personality for Rev seven and the project.
00:46:41:16 – 00:47:14:10
Unknown
And that’s Rev seven hardcore due care. And if people want to email us and get in contact with us, then they can just email info at Rev seven. Hair dot. Co.Uk. Awesome Darren, thank you so much for chatting chatting to me today. It’s been yes, inspirational. Remember last and last year? As I said when we were chatting, it was really fascinating hearing about this as a as it’s like our community is as, as it’s developing and now it’s here, it’s going well and all that.
00:47:14:10 – 00:47:38:22
Unknown
So, I would say we will offer prayers for you as, as the UPS team. Yeah. We’ll hold you in prayer. Thank you. And yeah, thanks for all you’re doing. Thanks for being with us. That was my absolute pleasure, Mark. It’s really. I’ve, I love just, you know, having these these conversations about Jesus and spiritual ality and just reflecting on what God is doing.
00:47:38:22 – 00:47:52:15
Unknown
Because God is doing some incredible work out there on that land. On that beautiful point, blessing. May God bless you, Bob.
00:47:52:17 – 00:48:05:02
Unknown
See? Normally I would say, and I try, but I don’t actually have the I say, okay, hit stop recording here. Now, I do have to.