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Show notes:
Tim Lea and Ian Mobsby explore contemplative mission, engaging spiritual seekers through silent prayer, deep inner transformation, and rich practical resources from Christian contemplative traditions.
- Guests: Ian Mobsby
- Buy the book here: freshexpressions.org.uk/shop
- Episode host: Tim Lea – fx Networking
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
00:00:01:18 – 00:00:13:14
Speaker 1
This is a mission shaped podcast. You’re listening to the authors take.
00:00:13:16 – 00:00:41:10
Speaker 2
On today. Everybody hope you, well, this Monday lunchtime. For those of you who don’t know, my name is Tim Lee. I work for, the National Facial Expressions team here in the UK. Kind of have responsibility for networking. If you’ve not heard of Fresh expressions, can have a look at the website. But we are committed to join in with what it is that God is already doing, and I’m delighted to welcome him up.
00:00:41:10 – 00:00:59:07
Speaker 2
Speak here to us today. And it is great to have you here. And I was trying to think back, actually, when it was that you and I kind of first connected and it must have been. Yeah. Oh, we must be ten, 15 years ago in terms of our kind of conversation. But it’s great to have you here.
00:00:59:13 – 00:01:00:13
Speaker 2
Are you good?
00:01:00:15 – 00:01:04:06
Speaker 3
Yes, Tim. Thank you. Yeah. I’m looking forward to this.
00:01:04:07 – 00:01:24:05
Speaker 2
So, you and I got to know each other in the very early days of kind of fresh expressions. I think both of us were kind of practicing practitioners trying to work it out, making it up as we go along. And I remember particularly, you had a sense of we you was the community which you were involved with.
00:01:24:07 – 00:01:48:09
Speaker 2
In London, you’ve gone on and and different things now. In recent years, you and I have been involved in kind of encouraging the prayer life of people. And during lockdown, we ran, wo must have been 6 or 7, kind of, communities, ten step programs. Learning from the the ten steps tradition of Alcoholics Anonymous.
00:01:48:11 – 00:01:57:16
Speaker 2
I know you moved recently. Whereabouts are you? Well, I think you’re in London today, but work wise, you’ve moved, I think. Is that right?
00:01:57:18 – 00:02:18:04
Speaker 3
Yes. No. I work now on the Anglican Diocese of Niagara, where I’ve become a diocesan missioner. So a mixture of practitioner and supporter of a load of missioners, although they are missionaries, stroke pioneers in Canada and a significant cohort. I’m quite glad I’m here in London because it’s -25 in the library. I was Spitzer. Yeah. Of it in Canada.
00:02:18:06 – 00:02:41:11
Speaker 2
Brilliant. So the book that you have been involved, in writing is called The Seeking Heart, with a, kind of, line of a contemplative approach to mission and pioneering. So we’re going to go straight in. And so just tell us, some fun facts about yourself. And, what is it that you love doing?
00:02:41:13 – 00:03:08:02
Speaker 3
So, people don’t know this book, but. Yeah, because I’m supposed to be the most unscientific person you will meet. But my grandfather was a big scientist who came up with a special formula for making sure that lenses on telescopes are accurate. So there would not be a Hubble telescope if it wasn’t for my grandfather and the others, who are quite proud of this accent sounds very English, but I’m very pleased to say I’m 50% Welsh, 50% Scandinavian, or as my father calls it, Double Viking.
00:03:08:04 – 00:03:11:23
Speaker 3
So the trick.
00:03:12:00 – 00:03:22:23
Speaker 2
I don’t think I knew either of those things about that. Correct. So this book that you wrote is taking heart. What was it that inspired you to write this?
00:03:23:00 – 00:03:44:09
Speaker 3
Well, I’ve been a mission Astro pioneer now, as it started off as a lay and then ordained for 31 years. And in all of that time, I became increasingly interested in the number of unchurched spiritual seekers. There were, and that grew. So as I grew into doing kind of new monastic fresh expressions, increasing awareness that this was a growing group of people.
00:03:44:09 – 00:04:04:16
Speaker 3
So, so my, inspiration was really, well, who are these spiritual seekers? And particularly this new group, the spiritual were not religious. And then how do we respond to that? And, you know, when many people were looking for they were questing for spirituality. So the so the book then was very inspired. Well, how do we open up Christian spirituality to those who are spiritually seeking?
00:04:04:16 – 00:04:10:06
Speaker 3
And actually, how do we live it? How do we live with a deep Christian spirituality relevant for today.
00:04:10:08 – 00:04:21:07
Speaker 2
And that term spiritual but not religious, that it was like it’s a kind of an academic term? Well, just kind of what does it mean?
00:04:21:09 – 00:04:49:14
Speaker 3
What is quite contentious is speech, but not religious. There’s some quite famous theologians who were quite negative about it, but I think it is a legitimate social grouping. And they are people who quest for spiritual experience. They’re looking for meaning, but don’t relate to traditional Christianity or any religion. And I think that part of this thing called a post secular culture where I think and that creates the conditions that we see, all these new spiritual seekers.
00:04:49:14 – 00:05:05:23
Speaker 3
So that’s that was my you know, that’s what I think a spiritual, not religious, is. They are really questioning love, drawing on all sorts of spirit traditions, but they don’t join in with church or synagogues or anywhere. They’re very much about trying to journey on their own spiritual journey.
00:05:06:00 – 00:05:21:16
Speaker 2
Okay, great. So talk to us about, you know, what’s the main what’s the main thread or methods of people? And why the seeking, as a pastor like a of, you know, yeah, I.
00:05:21:18 – 00:05:39:12
Speaker 3
Well, I think it’s the seeking heart because I think, well, what is contemplation? But that’s, I’ll talk about that a bit later. But so the motivation for the book is in two halves. Well, firstly, who are these spiritual religious and then and the second and that’s looking at this kind of trying to understand really practically what’s the motivation?
00:05:39:12 – 00:06:08:16
Speaker 3
The idea is of the spiritual, not religious. So the first book is coming out of that research. And the second part of that was what is a a Christian or Christian response that’s drawing on a more contemplative model, and therefore try to open up Christian contemplative, contemplative resources to those who are spiritually. See? Okay, so that’s the two halves of the book, and the very final bit as well, once people start asking religious questions following the fresh expressions process, how do you respond to that?
00:06:08:16 – 00:06:22:20
Speaker 3
So then I open up, a way of creating how you can create, opportunities for people to explore Christianity, in a way that’s really meaningful and, and on their terms so that that’s what’s the book’s all about.
00:06:22:22 – 00:06:42:10
Speaker 2
Okay. Great. Fantastic. So and is this is this born out a theory? Is it born out of your practice, or is this just someone that you know is just a good idea or where’s this, where is this coming from for you? If you’re, you know, what is the part of it for you?
00:06:42:12 – 00:07:05:09
Speaker 3
Well, this all began when I was in, this new monastic county called the City of London, working with some colleagues, where we set up two things a meditation group, a missional meditation group opening up Christian spirituality through an adapt to John Main approach. And also alongside that, something that started off being called Sarum, that grew into such and so, which was an opportunity for spiritual dialog.
00:07:05:11 – 00:07:25:23
Speaker 3
And these were really, really significant. I think for me, they kind of opened me up to this being a really important area that was quite neglected. And I didn’t really know anybody who was using this kind of combination of meditation and dialog as a way of being missional to its spiritual seekers. So that’s why I got really interested in it.
00:07:25:23 – 00:07:41:15
Speaker 3
And I think it’s been very important for my own Christian life. And the sense of, you know, the concept of tradition is really, really important and somewhat underplayed. So that was a very important part of my own spiritual growth.
00:07:41:17 – 00:08:08:00
Speaker 2
And I mean, personally, as someone who also has a call to be a contemplative on their life, I think that’s where often our paths crossed and we’ve had a number of really interesting conversations about what that means. So you talk about, you know, the use of the contemplative tradition or a contemplative approach to mission, pioneering. So how do you understand that word contemplative?
00:08:08:02 – 00:08:08:21
Speaker 2
00:08:08:23 – 00:08:33:07
Speaker 3
Good question. I think there’s two really important themes. Firstly contemplative say is that actually, the encounter of God, our prayer life, how we relate to God and encounter God matters, and particularly ones where we are letting go, where it’s all about silence. How do we allow how do we meet God that speaks from within just as much as from without?
00:08:33:09 – 00:08:53:00
Speaker 3
So there’s all this kind of. So I’ve been very inspired, you know, we’ve got 2000 years of resources, of different prayer traditions. And for me, the kind of Benedictine Franciscan indignation and comite forms of probing deeply resourcing about how to live today. So I think there’s something about these really ancient prayer practices that are deeply resonant.
00:08:53:00 – 00:09:17:10
Speaker 3
Now, I think the other part, which is really important, is that the contemplative decision says the art says something about human nature and our identity that actually as human becoming rather than human beings, you have an interior life. There is this sense that our true self is an interior self, that we can only really discover through God. And Thomas Merton writes quite a lot about that.
00:09:17:12 – 00:09:36:11
Speaker 3
And I think we live in a world that exists at the surface of itself. And we certainly see that with all that’s going on in the world and in politics, the ego and the full self. And how that, you know, you define yourself by power and achievement and that’s very egoic things. Well, the contemporary edition says, well, that’s all false.
00:09:36:11 – 00:09:58:10
Speaker 3
That’s not real. And actually the true self is my my inner landscape is incredibly important. And I think the church, to be honest, sometimes exists too much at the outside of itself. And I think conversion, if we talk about mission, then it’s that interior itself. The discovery of God speaks from within the self that’s transformed through the love of God.
00:09:58:10 – 00:10:22:10
Speaker 3
An encounter with God is incredibly important. So I’ve needed that as an individual, really. It’s kind of saved my life. Discovering that I’m not sure I would have been able to sustain being a Christian in the complexity of the world without it, and it’s deeply relevant for those who are called to mission and opening up the Christian tradition for those especially seeking right, because many people have no idea who they are.
00:10:22:12 – 00:10:30:13
Speaker 3
And there’s something about opening up Christianity to help people go much deeper in who they are in God, too.
00:10:30:15 – 00:10:55:19
Speaker 2
Yeah, just let me get this. Does this mean then that actually, if you know, the the kingdom of heaven is within us and that actually there is for too long we thought that actually it was external to us. And that interior journey is about discovering the love of God, which is within each one of us. I got that.
00:10:55:21 – 00:11:15:06
Speaker 3
But yeah, that’s right. Yes, I think because if you look at culture, we have still we still coming out of the enlightenment of modernity, which is all about rationalism and thinking and we have forgotten that Jesus talked about the heart being the organ of faith, and the heart is all about that in a landscape, about that inner being.
00:11:15:06 – 00:11:34:18
Speaker 3
And so, yes, I think you’re absolutely right. I think that faith Christianity starts from within and with the church. I think we’re still in recovery from this idea that we suddenly have to have everything worked out in terms of thinking and words, but actually that is all about encounter of God. And that, that and that’s got to be from within.
00:11:34:18 – 00:11:42:18
Speaker 3
And I think the deeper you go in Christianity, the more you need to go deeper into prayer and deeper into God that you discover from within.
00:11:42:20 – 00:11:50:01
Speaker 2
And you would say that is about silence and about solitude. Yeah. And connecting with the other.
00:11:50:03 – 00:12:16:12
Speaker 3
Yes. I think it’s critical in a world where we are, you know, we where I’ve met people who are terrified about being silent because when you’re silent, you have to face who you really are. You’re naked before God, right? We fill our eyes with technology and avoidance, avoidance, avoidance. And we, you know, we use noise and it’s very, almost, you know, that now that, you know that God that speaks the still small voice needs to be encountered.
00:12:16:14 – 00:12:42:06
Speaker 3
And I think people are terrified about looking inwards or the inner journey because we live in a culture that is driven by a market society, which is all about, you know, success, ego, shopping, and consumerism. That avoids that inner journey at all costs. So, so I think it’s, you know, I think we have a mental health crisis as well as a crisis, an ecological crisis.
00:12:42:08 – 00:13:03:20
Speaker 3
I think Thomas Merton is utterly right because of where of many, many people are avoiding that inner journey. And Jesus was all about that in the journey. And he lived out that profound way of life as a disciple and I of kind of silent prayer, encounter of God and then action, prayer and action. And like soon Christianity is it’s very little prayer and a lot of action.
00:13:03:22 – 00:13:31:12
Speaker 2
And as well and that’s yeah, I was going to say and that’s really interesting if you like, because, you know, it kind of takes us into the next question, which is, you know, most of us been involved with for sure expressions new worshiping communities pioneering, however, is that we like to talk about it. All right. Are active, have been or are still are activists who and I know because I think about it myself is that often it’s only been about the top six inches.
00:13:31:12 – 00:14:02:05
Speaker 2
It’s only been about what knowledge is it that somebody needs to know. And actually what you’re saying is, is that that’s not so important as the interior journey and what it is that God’s saying to us inside. And if you like, you know, you argue very strongly in the book that we’ve taken on the sacred secular divide and, and have effectively said that Christianity is just about information or knowledge.
00:14:02:07 – 00:14:16:12
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. I’m actually you’re saying something very different. Yeah. That actually it’s far more holistic is far more about, hearts about that. Right. In terms of.
00:14:16:14 – 00:14:37:03
Speaker 3
Yeah, totally. So, you know, so much of mission, you know, I sometimes I’ve felt guilty as a missionary, you know, I thought I’m not you know, sometimes we feel the pressure to be like, secondhand car salesman trying to say people try to force people or manipulate or or have the perfect argument. As if facts for Jesus enables people to find Christianity.
00:14:37:03 – 00:15:01:10
Speaker 3
I don’t I fundamentally don’t believe that the gospel stories that Jesus were and of, you know, the, the, the disciples and the apostles were all about people having, transformative experience of God and of Jesus. So, so this, you know, I think, I think it’s Karana predicted that he said the Christian of the future would be a mistake or they will not exist at all.
00:15:01:10 – 00:15:21:09
Speaker 3
And I think that’s absolutely right, that there’s something about opening up in this, that, that we have to live with this depth of God, our prayer practices, the way we live as a rhythm based on the encounter of God is critical. And then inviting people to join on that pilgrimage towards God, is, is, I think, really important.
00:15:21:09 – 00:15:44:13
Speaker 3
So, yeah, we need to get away for, you know, the idea that conversion is about facts about God to encounter God. And that has to be around prayer. And people are spiritually hungry. All right. There’s lots of spiritual seekers who are desperately searching for meaning. They see the market society collapsing around our way. Is materialism never delivered any sense of depth and security, and people are desperately right.
00:15:44:13 – 00:16:04:00
Speaker 3
They’re asking that question, then how shall we live? So it’s not about, you know, but just about belief. Now it’s about a whole way. How do we live? How do we know who we are? How do we live as fulfilled human beings? And I believe that can only come from a depth of contemplation that drives us into action.
00:16:04:00 – 00:16:26:23
Speaker 3
You know, that false dichotomy. If you’re really leading in God in prayer, then it leads to that relational mission, that depth of Christ and and then our lives then become moments of seeking to serve God through being. Curators are opportunities for people to encounter God. It’s so critical. And I think too much of my life is running around like a headless chicken kind of.
00:16:26:24 – 00:17:01:18
Speaker 3
And also things the people where I was like living at the surface. And guess what? It was utterly, sustainable and really didn’t serve God in terms of mission. And I love the contemporary idea of mission. So rather than mission of being about just conversion, mission is actually about God restoring all things back into right relationship with God is that two Corinthians four and five image, which then is deeply transformational, and so exciting and I so it’s so less about secondhand car and more about being deep disciples and God not being.
00:17:01:20 – 00:17:24:13
Speaker 2
Yeah. And and if you like that, that that then goes to the heart of our kind of Christology, if you like, you know, as to, you know, the whole of the world, not just individual personal salvation. Yes, the whole of the world is being reconciled with all of the ecological implications that that brings.
00:17:24:14 – 00:17:44:02
Speaker 3
And the other part of that was you’re absolutely right, Tim, is then that everybody is on their own unique pilgrimage. And I do believe that God is pouring out God’s love into the world. And I seeking to, you know, draw people to the God’s about centered, set way of thinking about mission. That then is that is seeking for people to respond to.
00:17:44:02 – 00:18:07:18
Speaker 3
So there is a sense of of, you know, that God is not absent in the world, but, we have called to trust that God is doing God’s mission, as part of that restorative healing process. And our job then is to get out of the way of God. I think so often, and to just help people and encourage people to go on that journey and learn to trust and leniency, encounter God.
00:18:07:20 – 00:18:31:10
Speaker 2
And I’m just thinking that that ties in completely with, if you like, you know, Fresh Expressions has always been about the missio dei. God is at work in the world, and our role and our task is to discern and to discover where it is in the most surprising of places. And if you’re like what you’re saying is, is that actually that begins with a contemplative journey?
00:18:31:15 – 00:18:33:20
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think it does.
00:18:33:22 – 00:19:00:01
Speaker 2
Flows into, what that there means in that place where you meet the spiritual but not religious, but, but anybody actually. Yeah. And I really. Yeah. And and it feels like it’s a, it’s almost a, it’s a that kind of question I find myself asking, you know, do I actually really believe that God is at work in the world?
00:19:00:03 – 00:19:27:14
Speaker 3
Yeah. And that’s a daily battle. Yeah. And I think the contemporary tradition says a rhythm of daily encounter of God receiving the love of God. To learn to love yourself, to be able to love others is critical. Otherwise, I don’t know about you, but my default position often is anxiety and fear. And if I don’t pray and encountering God, then my whole worldview for that day is about scarcity and survival.
00:19:27:16 – 00:19:48:08
Speaker 3
But if I pray, and I allow this space to encounter God, it utterly transforms the way I think and act. So, you know, that has to be a daily discipline to, to that way. And I think as Christians, we’re, not always good at being prayerful. We think, you know, you know, all the emphasis is on doing well.
00:19:48:08 – 00:20:03:10
Speaker 3
Obviously, we forget that, that, you know, doing without being in God is just, you know, that’s what are people going to see and say. Only when I think I live out this death does it become attractive and invitational to others.
00:20:03:12 – 00:20:26:01
Speaker 2
Okay. And so in the book, the I mean, I know that it’s borne out of some research, which you did in terms of, you know, with this group spiritual but not religious. And we talked a little bit about what that means and how we understand that. But what is interesting all the way through the book, which is the stories which you tell, about those people.
00:20:26:03 – 00:20:37:06
Speaker 2
And so is there a particular story which, you know, has, has been really important for you or has been a key story? Would you share that with us?
00:20:37:08 – 00:20:59:09
Speaker 3
Yeah, if I have, just so we have a 32 stories, which was, you know, remark able to to accompany through that. A key one for me, was a guy who started out as an atheist, which is my family background, and where I was actually, much when I was much younger. So he was like, in his, 30s being working in it, you know, radical atheist and then got depressed.
00:20:59:09 – 00:21:17:10
Speaker 3
So he went to see his therapist about that. And the whole issue of spirituality, which didn’t exist. Right. So it’s all, you know, it’s all rational. Let’s go. You know, so so he almost got to a place where he had to disbelieve that whole rational thing and give room for the spiritual and for. And he did some research.
00:21:17:10 – 00:21:37:19
Speaker 3
So I think he started going off to a Buddhist center for meditation and turned up, one of these meditation, missional meditation groups that we were running, in the city. And, and then he joined in with that. And joined in with that very reliably because he experienced it to work. The meditation thing opened up spirituality and and Christian spirituality.
00:21:37:21 – 00:22:12:02
Speaker 3
So on the back of that, he then joined the dialog group, and then started to explore, you know, and then, you know, started off with a very negative stereotype about Christianity in the church, but then grew to, to be a bit more open and then started asking religious questions in this dialog group. And so, you know, through a number, it didn’t it doesn’t happen quickly, but, you know, in the sense that time he then started to put down feelers with the fresh expression that was involved in at the time, and then grew into exploring it.
00:22:12:02 – 00:22:39:16
Speaker 3
And he said, oh, I quite like you as Christians, as long as you’re not those bonkers fundamentalists over there, I can cope with you so that and I can grow into that. So so then on the back of that, he came to faith. You know, he chose to follow Christ after going through these various stages, formation, with lots of little eureka moments on that journey to the point where he felt ready to be baptized and then got involved and is now, he’s got involved in a Christian church on the back of that.
00:22:39:16 – 00:23:00:15
Speaker 3
So for me, that was amazing. And I think the where that where he was and where the church were, were, were, you know, as it’s classic fresh expressions. But there’s something about this approach then joined that, that help that missional journey to happen. And for him to become a Christian, which was a delight and delight.
00:23:00:17 – 00:23:28:06
Speaker 2
So you talked about this kind of contemplative community. So how do you host what are those? Because, you know, often as a Christian, you know, let’s face it, you know, we’re pretty good at trying to shoehorn people in or tell them what it is that they should believe or should practice. How do you host that kind of space?
00:23:28:08 – 00:23:43:20
Speaker 3
Well, there’s different ways of doing it. There’s no one way, I would say. I mean, one way is through, New Monasticism, but that’s not right everywhere. That’s a particular form of fresh expressions, has strengths and weaknesses. Other ways, I think, is, is about how do you how could you? So if you’re in a parish church context, you want to be more missional.
00:23:44:00 – 00:24:03:16
Speaker 3
How could you run a contemplative practice? How do you have a space for this where, where people could be very committed to the regularity of some sort of missional meditation group and dialog group? I think, yeah. So I think there’s, I think if you and I think the other thing is, you know, I’m thinking about I’m an Anglican, right?
00:24:03:16 – 00:24:29:03
Speaker 3
So we forget the Anglican prayer practices sort of, or from monastic prayer, which is the Book of Common Prayer that came out of the monastic tradition. So actually it is possible to open up morning and evening praying and Compline in very contemplative ways. You just got to give less words and more silence, so you can actually draw on these traditions to, to to be very contemplative.
00:24:29:03 – 00:24:55:07
Speaker 3
And I think that then creates the culture of the importance of contemplative prayer built into the DNA of whether it’s a parish church, a fresh expression or whatever you’re doing. So I don’t think, you know, you don’t have to be new monastic to do this. I think you just got to have an openness to the incredible amount of spiritual seekers out there who and those that call themselves spiritual, not religious as a subset, and then think, well, how could you serve people in their spiritual journey?
00:24:55:07 – 00:25:09:16
Speaker 3
And I mean, running a meditation group doesn’t get any easier. You know, you do an introduction. You say, I live for 20 minutes. You tell people what to do, and then you do an ending. That’s it. So now it’s not a challenge. It’s sort of activity. I love.
00:25:09:18 – 00:25:14:10
Speaker 2
So what you’re saying is that to be more missional, we need to be more silent.
00:25:14:12 – 00:25:38:10
Speaker 3
Yeah. We have to have room for doing this. And you know, the other thing that someone said to me once and I would tell you it was, is that you’ve got to be an introvert, to be contemplative. So I fundamentally disagree. I’m a ridiculously extrovert, so I need it. I need silence around me in the reality to get out of my head, into the reality of the world and the reality of who I am.
00:25:38:12 – 00:25:42:18
Speaker 3
Right. So. So that’s critical, I think, to to think that way.
00:25:42:20 – 00:26:06:19
Speaker 2
And it only also goes it really goes against that kind of whole confusing control, somewhere. But where the primary agency resides that it’s not us. The primary agency is God. And we, you know, day we entertain 20 minutes of silence to let God get a word in me.
00:26:06:21 – 00:26:23:11
Speaker 3
So most likely we’re so impoverished. So, you know, so there’s something about us as individual Christians in this book. And there’s also something about a conference into a particular, more contemplative model of mission. And they go hand in hand, something like.
00:26:23:13 – 00:26:47:13
Speaker 2
On a note towards the end of the book, there’s some really they there are some ways in which you can host these kind of spaces. What that looks like. And you provide some helpful liturgy, as well, and some prayers. So again, it’s humbling. Some people can can buy the book and read about that, but also if you like, actually, you know, try it the try themselves.
00:26:47:13 – 00:27:15:03
Speaker 2
Give it a whirl because I think it it’s it’s possible. So you just tell me then, you know, What is it to rising out of this book that, you know, people should really grab Ahold of what is it that, you know, if people are listening today, what is it that you’re really hoping they will take away from this.
00:27:15:05 – 00:27:38:01
Speaker 3
One is, I think, about more contemplative understanding of the, of this spiritual journey. I mean, I don’t know about you, but I no one ever told me that there were these stages of awakening, purgation, illumination, and union. And for me, the critical stages, in becoming Christian and also critical stages of growing into Christianity. They don’t stop.
00:27:38:01 – 00:27:44:24
Speaker 3
But these cycles of, you know, awakening, purgation, illumination, healing and just unpack that a little bit so that.
00:27:44:24 – 00:27:53:19
Speaker 2
What that is, those are the most deeply theological words, which I’m not quite sure I understand, but just. Yeah, just tell us a little bit more about those words.
00:27:53:21 – 00:28:22:05
Speaker 3
Well, I think awakening is about when people are stirred to the reality of God. So that story I told that was stirred through some form of therapy could be anything where people have some occurring. And then purgation is when you suddenly realize that you are broken and then suddenly, you know, we have so many attachments. We live, you know, we live in a very unhealthy way in a market society, that you suddenly we Harry wounds and pains of our life experiences and quite quickly they catch up with us.
00:28:22:10 – 00:28:45:11
Speaker 3
And then those people hit projection, which is a painful state. Then you have to kind encountered God to get through that which is called illumination, which is where you let go, that you know those prayer practices of surrender, to let go of all those attachments and disappointments and wounds, to seek healing that lead them to the ideal that people become in Christ, become Christians.
00:28:45:11 – 00:29:11:20
Speaker 3
And by doing that, they’re stepping into union, which is about a deeper and full relationship with God, and God with God in Trinity. So, so those are the critical lives that you know, you start from this place of awakening that leads to these stages to becoming Christian in Christ. And that is a pilgrimage. And we forgot again that actually pilgrimages aren’t just for the Christian, but for those who are spiritually exploring.
00:29:11:20 – 00:29:37:05
Speaker 3
Right. So that we can so prayer and this missional journey then become a way of opening up mission and evangelism in a very indirect, non directive way. So that’s the first big what I want to say. The second thing is, to many Christians and in church are totally unaware that we’re in a secular culture. And there are, you know, that we’re increasingly seeing large numbers of unchurched spiritual seekers.
00:29:37:07 – 00:29:54:16
Speaker 3
And I’m always shocked about how many places have no idea that’s going on. So I think for us to notice that in your neighborhood and this book and share some resources about how you approach a, how do you understand it and to how do you respond to it. So that’s the second big thing. And I think the third one is.
00:29:54:16 – 00:30:19:19
Speaker 3
Yeah. So that I think this stuff is incredibly exciting. I, you know, I’ve spent most of my church life feeling guilty. I’m not doing enough. And suddenly you’ve got a whole approach that says, well, actually, I’m going to create curate these opportunities in the expectation of God will do what God will do. And I just have to get out of the way and just like that, it was with the, Ethiopian eunuch responding to what God is doing.
00:30:19:24 – 00:30:42:04
Speaker 3
Well, it’s that’s just a delight. I love that way of working. So, so, so even now, when I’m in Hamilton in Ontario, there is a group called Hamilton. Well, where it’s called Beer and Meditation and beers. They have meditation, go for a beer. They got 200 members, unchurched people who are signed up to the yeah, you don’t get 200 every time.
00:30:42:04 – 00:31:07:19
Speaker 3
But the very fact that is a mass upgrade, it’s got 200 people over it, I think, says lazy. It’s only been there for nine months and it’s got 200 members. That’s that’s really exciting. So those are the things I think it offers. Let’s get real with the world that we live in. In response to it, we wake up to the fact that, you know, fresh expressions and all this kind of missional purpose means that we just have to be engaged with these kind of spiritual, why not religious?
00:31:07:19 – 00:31:12:13
Speaker 3
And and if you really look there, there.
00:31:12:15 – 00:31:21:22
Speaker 2
And so, yeah, you are appear to be fundamentally saying this is a way in which we can engage missional.
00:31:21:24 – 00:31:24:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. And works.
00:31:24:10 – 00:31:26:04
Speaker 2
You know this. Yeah.
00:31:26:06 – 00:31:48:10
Speaker 3
Struggling you know with the church is detaching. We’re struggling with the relationship with church and culture. And and we find ourselves in the new plural age where people are interested in Christianity. They’re desperately searching for meaning, but they don’t trust institutions. They don’t trust anything that seems to be controlling. And and they don’t. And interestingly, they’re not interested in product.
00:31:48:15 – 00:32:07:11
Speaker 3
Now, we’ve relied on, I think, a lot of some of the more recent initiatives to try to sell church as a product, but the beautiful people at the front, and then we all fall in line with the right videos and everything. You know, people don’t want that. They want authenticity and they want things that work for them on their terms and their spiritual journey.
00:32:07:11 – 00:32:28:02
Speaker 3
And that isn’t a threat. It means that we just have to stop, you know, you get back to this in the this is a whole Christianity. This isn’t new. This was monastic. Mystics have been banging on about for a very long time. So I think leaning into that and not and getting away from this kind of managerial ism that I kind of encounter off in the church is critical.
00:32:28:04 – 00:32:37:12
Speaker 3
So that needs deep discipleship. That opens up deep mission and prayer and contemplation is part of that journey.
00:32:37:14 – 00:32:51:15
Speaker 2
And thank you. Thank you for your honesty. Unaware. I’m aware of, you know, having been in conversation with you, this is not always been an easy journey.
00:32:51:17 – 00:32:55:06
Speaker 3
For a missionary mission. No. Pioneering has an easy life.
00:32:55:08 – 00:32:56:00
Speaker 2
And I know what it’s like.
00:32:56:05 – 00:33:12:19
Speaker 3
In history if not fitting in. Whereas all the struggle with this approach that I can sustain, you know, I’m like, I know I’ve been doing this now for 31 years, was a bit of a shock. So I’m now like 57. And I started off this journey 20 something, and there’s only this depth of private contemplation that I’ve that all this stuff.
00:33:13:00 – 00:33:32:18
Speaker 3
And I’m so excited about this book because it is just the, the naming of all this stuff that I’ve learned along the way, plus some research. So and I know how many ministers and partners are struggling, and I think this is a really a resource. I hope that will help my mission in pioneering much more sustainable and life giving.
00:33:32:20 – 00:33:37:07
Speaker 3
And yeah, just will fit when I think in lots of different contexts.
00:33:37:09 – 00:34:06:05
Speaker 2
And thank you so much for your your vulnerability. And if you like, there’s so much of you in this story, but also, you know, there’s a there’s an academic rigor and some research behind this which says exactly what you said, you know, the God that we believe, and it works. Exactly. And thank you so much, for your time today.
00:34:06:05 – 00:34:36:11
Speaker 2
And yeah, we wish you well and yeah, your seeking heart. So thank you. So yeah. The book is, is available at the seeking a contemplative approach to mission and pioneering by Ian Mosby is available, in the shop, which you can see, there on the screen or, and the other is, it’s, the other place that it’s available.
00:34:36:13 – 00:35:00:08
Speaker 3
This is the SXM press in the UK. There are a number of different outlets, in North America as well, because I’m a few people watching from there. So. So yeah, it is, although it came out two weeks ago. That’s right. So it is hot off the press. And if you get that order before, before the end of the month, before the 31st of January, you get 20% off with that same press.
00:35:00:10 – 00:35:05:06
Speaker 2
Brilliant. Great. And thanks very much indeed.
00:35:05:08 – 00:35:32:05
Speaker 1
Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoyed that episode. If you want to dig a bit deeper, there’s loads over at Fresh expressions.org Duke. Things like godsend, our toolkit for starting new Christian communities, plus loads of other resources, worship ideas and real life stories. You’ll also find info about the gatherings we run throughout the year, books and resources in our shop, coaching and training for pioneers and for the leaders across denominations, dioceses, networks.
00:35:32:07 – 00:35:42:21
Speaker 1
You can sign up to our newsletter, follow us on our socials or find out how to support and partner with us. It’s all there on the website. Go take a look. Fresh expressions.org. Duke.