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Show notes:
Nik Stevenson shares how blending digital engagement with outdoor pilgrimages builds community, deepens relationships, and offers spiritual growth through nature and online connections.
- Guest: Nik Stevenson
- Connect with Nik here: Digital Saints
- Episode host: Mark Robinson – fx Comms
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
This is an automated transcript and may not be fully accurate.
00:00:10:22 – 00:00:26:04
Speaker 1
Hey, my name is Mark Robinson, and I’m on the UPS team here at Fresh Expressions. Today I’m chatting with Nick Stevenson. You’re listening to the Mission Shaped podcast.
00:00:26:06 – 00:00:41:15
Speaker 2
And I’m hoping as I’m kind of walking ahead of time, that hopefully God is speaking to me in some way, that whatever I come up with might be useful to the people who I then lead around the pilgrimage. That’s the idea.
00:00:41:17 – 00:00:57:17
Speaker 2
I had was I forget who said it and I it’s not me. But somebody did say, you know, Fresh Expressions is the R&D department of the church really?
00:00:57:19 – 00:01:01:22
Speaker 1
Good evening Nick. Welcome to the podcast. How you doing?
00:01:01:24 – 00:01:14:07
Speaker 2
I’m good. Thank you. Yeah. I’ve got my two favorite curly friends with me. Nibbling on a bone underneath my desk. I just tired them out by taking them out for a run. So. Yeah, I’m feeling kit.
00:01:14:09 – 00:01:37:18
Speaker 1
Very nice. Last time we saw each other was at the our national gathering and aid at the haze. But before that, we’ve we’ve never met. And I realize we we don’t really know each other very well, and I know very little about what it is you do and your community. So why don’t we just get into it?
00:01:37:20 – 00:01:54:13
Speaker 1
Why don’t you tell me straight off the bat about a little bit about yourself and and your community? A bit about, always love to hear. So that’s why how your community started.
00:01:54:15 – 00:02:25:20
Speaker 2
Okay. So I’ve been, a pioneer minister for. I grew up ten, 15 years now. Yeah, probably nearer to 15. And, we came up here to North Yorkshire in, 2019. So we’ve just been here five years. This month, in fact, and the community that’s emerged from what we’re doing has emerged out of the running community that I’m part of.
00:02:25:20 – 00:02:46:02
Speaker 2
It’s emerged out of the walking the dogs in the local neighborhood, the people that we’ve met that, the kind of wide, trail running communities I’ve met and races and some people that we’ve met, who are interested in kind of being outdoors as well. So it’s, and there are kind of two parts to our, our community.
00:02:46:02 – 00:03:31:00
Speaker 2
There’s, one that is a digital park which, meets online three nights a week to do, night prayer together. That’s called digital science. That’s been going long term. We’ve been up here, but it’s mostly populated by people from from, our local community. Now. And then the other part of this stuff that we do is we do something called Moors Pilgrims, but we head out, once a month, into the wonderful North York Moors, and discover, some of the, the beauties that we have to offer, often finding out some of the, standing stones and crosses, the litter, the landscape, ancient stone circles, bizarre little hermitage is,
00:03:31:02 – 00:03:44:23
Speaker 2
we’re really fortunate to have some really kind of, unspoiled landscapes, on our doorstep, and and they’re amazing for being out and, in all weathers as well, which is nice.
00:03:45:00 – 00:03:55:06
Speaker 1
Nice, wonderful. So tell me, tell us a little bit then. So you said the sort of two sides, I’m gonna ask this in a backwards way because it will help me shape house.
00:03:55:08 – 00:03:58:17
Speaker 2
But no, that’s fine.
00:03:58:19 – 00:04:01:13
Speaker 1
Actually, no, I’ll just give you a diatribe of questions and then you tell me.
00:04:01:13 – 00:04:03:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, that’s fine.
00:04:03:16 – 00:04:13:22
Speaker 1
It’s fine. The thought I was having is because you mentioned sort of these these two different parts, of the Digital Saints and the Moors Pilgrims, is too much crossover.
00:04:13:24 – 00:04:43:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. So the majority of people who come to our Moors, pilgrims, connect in some way to digital saints. And actually, my wife Shelley wrote her PhD on our digital community because, one of the things we found is that hybridity really builds community, because I’m sure we all know when we’re gathering together, even if we’re trying to gather together weekly, it’s really easy for people to miss two, three, four meetings.
00:04:43:08 – 00:05:10:19
Speaker 2
And then soon. You haven’t seen people for a while, unless you’re meeting monthly or fortnightly, that’s even longer than that. And so having, an opportunity to connect three times a week, it kind of keeps those relationships going in the meantime. And that allows that continual connection. And we meet up for other things as well. I see a lot of people, some people are part of our running club that I’m, I’m a leader in, other people I’ll see at races or other community events and things.
00:05:10:19 – 00:05:23:10
Speaker 2
So it’s not like we don’t see people, but there is a sense in which, Digital Saints kind of keeps everything moving and, and is the kind of hub throughout which everything is organized as well.
00:05:23:12 – 00:05:43:21
Speaker 1
So tell me about tell me what it looks like. So for someone who doesn’t know what your community looks like. Yeah. What what does it look like? What does a what does a meeting look like. How what takes shape and, and and sort of what sort of the journey someone might go on when they, when they first meet you and you go, hey, do you like running?
00:05:43:21 – 00:05:45:00
Speaker 1
And they say, yeah, I like running.
00:05:45:04 – 00:06:07:19
Speaker 2
Yeah. So the generally how it works says most recently is how it works is I’ll either meet somebody on a run at our club or on a, on a race or, there’s some other kind of community runs that I go on and I’ll get chatting to people, and they’ll find out what I do. And, you know, I’m quite open about my job.
00:06:08:00 – 00:06:36:23
Speaker 2
You know, I say I’m a I’m a vicar, but I don’t have a church in kind of a traditional sense. You know, I work in the community, community chaplain, all those kind of words that have kind of helpful words. And often they’ll will link up on Facebook at some point. And because our community gets broadcast through Facebook, so it’s only broadcast from digital Saints Facebook page, but it’s also broadcast on my personal Facebook page as well, because often people will start to, to, to join that way.
00:06:37:00 – 00:06:53:01
Speaker 2
And then as with a lot of digital stuff, you unless they comment or say something, you don’t know, they’re there, but then you might see them again in a few months time. And this is pretty interesting what you said. You know, it’s really interesting, you know, and we start a conversation. You’ve no idea that I suddenly started watching what you’re doing.
00:06:53:01 – 00:07:14:13
Speaker 2
So, and so then you all say, well, hey, why don’t you come, come on. One of our walks. We’ve we’ve experimented a bit with doing some runs as well. You know, why don’t you come on one and and and see what you think? You know, there’s a bunch of like minded people who are kind of exploring spirituality and, and enjoy the peace of the Moors and a bit of kind of meditation.
00:07:14:13 – 00:07:28:15
Speaker 2
Sometimes we’ll share bread and wine together, sometimes will end up at a cafe or a pub or whatever. And, and yeah, it’s and so that’s kind of the way in really that seems to be the way in that.
00:07:28:17 – 00:07:38:11
Speaker 1
It what what do you or you did what do your evenings of I’m assuming evenings I think you said and but digital saints what is. Yeah. Like like what sort of format does that take.
00:07:38:16 – 00:08:05:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. So it’s pretty short. Ten, 15 minutes tops though the beginning bit, five, six, seven minutes will be Shelly and I are the sharing something from our day might be something significant has happened to us and we just want to share, you know, a personal moment. It might be a thought that’s rolling around in our head, might be something we read or something that we’re struggling with personally or whatever, and we’ll share that and we’ll discuss it.
00:08:05:03 – 00:08:27:20
Speaker 2
Or it might be a Bible verse or a poem or whatever and some sort of inspiration. And we’ll have this chat for about, 5 or 6 minutes. And we’re really lucky because Shelly and I have done broadcasts together for almost as long as we’ve known each other. So that’s 20 odd years. We’ve been broadcasting on radio and on on stations platforms together.
00:08:27:20 – 00:08:48:14
Speaker 2
So that comes quite easy. And then we have an opportunity, to pray. So people with either during the week will either message us or, make a comment to say that they’d like somebody to be prayed for. And then we’ll just just like you would in a regular church service up and down the country. You’ll read through the list of the people who’d like to be prayed for.
00:08:48:14 – 00:09:09:05
Speaker 2
You know, we don’t go into details about Auntie Doris’s knee or anything like that. We’ll just say, Doris, and it’s it’s enough, isn’t it? People know that they’re being prayed for, we might have more intimate times with people if they want it. But, you know, in that situation, we just read through the list of names and we pray for them, and then we’ll go into this simple, Northumbrian liturgy.
00:09:09:07 – 00:09:20:06
Speaker 2
We use the night prayer, which again is sort of five, five minutes tops. And then, yeah, we say good night and, yeah. That’s it.
00:09:20:08 – 00:09:25:24
Speaker 1
So what about the the, the the Moors pilgrims? I’m going to bring these back together at a moment.
00:09:25:24 – 00:09:26:09
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know.
00:09:26:09 – 00:09:34:03
Speaker 1
You’ll find that interesting stuff, but. Yeah. Tell us about the what what the the the. Yeah. Moors pilgrims looks like and. Yeah.
00:09:34:03 – 00:09:34:16
Speaker 2
Okay.
00:09:34:18 – 00:09:36:24
Speaker 1
So is probably gonna be very different and.
00:09:37:01 – 00:09:57:16
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, yeah a little bit. So we’ll generally meet 10:00 on a Sunday morning ironically, we’ve tried a few different dates, but the Sunday is always seems to be possible. I normally put a poll out, like, after we’ve done one, I’ll put a poll out amongst the people who normally come to see when to be good for the next month, and we’ll agree a date.
00:09:57:16 – 00:10:19:09
Speaker 2
And it’s normally 10:00. We’ll meet in a car park somewhere. And we’ll, we’ll sort of start heading off shortly after ten. And I normally plan a route between 5 and 7, maybe a little bit longer. So I think we’ve done one that’s eight depending on the terrain, because sometimes it’s really hilly. And so obviously you don’t want to go as far because it takes a bit longer.
00:10:19:11 – 00:10:38:21
Speaker 2
Sometimes it just needs to be longer because of the nature of what you need to get to, and will have some stopping points. So normally what I’ll do either the week before, or during the week leading up to it is all gone. Either walk or run the route and just try and be struck by the landscape.
00:10:38:21 – 00:11:01:21
Speaker 2
And sometimes there’ll be some really obvious things like we’re going to come across, I don’t know, four of the standing stones. And so I’ll come up with a little meditation for each of those. Yeah. It might be to do if I can do some good research, it might be to do with the particular, stones. Our last one, we we ended up at Leila’s Cross, which is the oldest Christian monument in the north of England.
00:11:01:23 – 00:11:25:05
Speaker 2
It’s, in memory of Leila, who was, a servant to King Edwin. And they are believed to have converted King Edwin to Christianity. That was, and it was because of their their sacrificial love for their king, because apparently, I think they they died in battle protecting the king. And, there was something there.
00:11:25:06 – 00:11:43:06
Speaker 2
So that that’s the sort of myth and legend that surrounds them, but that that crosses there on the, on the moors and, and it’s pretty genuine. They, they did some archeological digging at one point and discovered some, some grave goods that are kind of contemporary to that era, like sign relic. But yeah.
00:11:43:08 – 00:12:04:10
Speaker 1
So I see things that they there’s that common thing of being in nature that so many people connect with God’s naturally. Yeah. Or find their spiritual pathway through, through nature. But then I can appreciate if there are actual things that you cannot miss that point towards Jesus very explicitly.
00:12:04:12 – 00:12:24:15
Speaker 2
That’s absolutely we use them. Of course we do. I mean, sometimes I mean other things. What we did a walk just before, Christmas last year and I went out, a couple of days before, and it was it snowed really heavily, and I was up on the tops, and there was just a conifer tree just poking through the snow.
00:12:24:15 – 00:12:38:13
Speaker 2
They sort of sell seed because there’s a lot of forests around here. So some of them self seed on the top of the moors, they don’t last very long. They grow to sort of six, eight feet high, and then they end up getting blown over. But this one was was standing proud. And so I just thought, oh, happy.
00:12:38:13 – 00:13:05:18
Speaker 2
Really cool. So, one of our, we got some, I forget why I got, I think I picked some, some biodegradable, I picked some flowers from, from our garden. And we went and hung, them on the tree as a kind of hope. So they were kind of like biodegradable baubles. Did. And that that was one of the one of the kind of meditations that we did on, on a just before Christmas.
00:13:05:18 – 00:13:23:22
Speaker 2
And it’s things like that. So sometimes they’re practical things that we do. Sometimes it’ll just be, oh, so we’re here, this amazing view. Let’s think, let’s think about, I don’t know. I’m trying to think of something now that we’ve done, but yeah, let’s, you know, let’s just take it. We did it. We did a remembrance, walk, last November.
00:13:23:22 – 00:13:43:16
Speaker 2
And yeah, we just had opportunities to to think about, you know, people who died in conflict and things. So, yeah, wonderful. Lots of different opportunities to, to think and, and I’m hoping as I’m kind of walking ahead as I am, that hopefully God is speaking to me in some way that whatever I come up with might be useful to the people who I then lead around the pilgrimage.
00:13:43:16 – 00:13:45:19
Speaker 2
That’s the idea. I mean.
00:13:45:21 – 00:13:55:15
Speaker 1
No doubt there’s there’s a lot of sort of relying heavily on, on the spirit doing the thing and engaging with people and and meeting them. Yeah.
00:13:55:17 – 00:14:16:02
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And it’s the it’s not just I always say to people, you know, there’s there’s no magic in what I’ve prepared is just simply giving a space. And sometimes it will be through some a conversation that two people have had, you know, in the group, two people will go off together and they’ll start discussing something after a tiny seed or something like that has started them on that track.
00:14:16:02 – 00:14:37:08
Speaker 2
And they’ve gone way off left from where I originally thought. And they’ll tell us later what happened. And it’s like, that’s awesome. You know, it’s totally not what I plan, totally. But it’s by allowing them to have this space to to meditate and to contemplate and to think deeply about stuff. It’s really touched them and it’s made a difference to them.
00:14:37:10 – 00:14:43:02
Speaker 2
And it’s, it’s nothing to do. The thing that I particularly planned, but that’s absolutely fine. You know.
00:14:43:04 – 00:15:07:18
Speaker 1
It’s one of those aspects that we’ve really been hearing and listening to is the, the, the need for space. And obviously we’ve been talking to a lot of people and a lot of practitioners about giving them space to just listen, voice concerns, talk to people who are like minded. But also it goes down to those people that we’re ministering to, right?
00:15:07:19 – 00:15:21:11
Speaker 1
That everyone just needs someone’s permission to stop what they’re doing, to have some space to really unpack and think, what do I think about this? What do I feel about that? Yeah. And safe, healthy space.
00:15:21:13 – 00:15:49:05
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was I just finished reading, a biography of Ignatius and, one of the things the biographer says in the epilog, you know, is that, something you can kind of read from, from Ignatius. His work is, you know, immature prayer is something that is incredibly verbose and full of needs and wants and self-centered but mature prayer is something that is full of silence and space for God to do the talking.
00:15:49:05 – 00:16:25:21
Speaker 2
And and I think, you know, people seem to be getting that naturally, that idea of having that that space and the area to to exist and to meet with God in a, in a way that is a is very unstructured, but they seem, it seems to chime in with them. And in the 21st century, when our lives are so full of stuff, you know, and a lot of these people, you know, we’ve got people who are consultants in the NHS, people who work in, you know, really high pressure jobs, people who who are, really, really busy people.
00:16:25:23 – 00:16:42:22
Speaker 2
The last thing they want is a set of meetings where they’ve got to accomplish 17 things, you know, what they need is the space and the time to, you know, to be outdoors and to be inspired and to feel loved and cared for and to have that space to, to to rest and recuperate.
00:16:42:24 – 00:17:14:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. It’s something I discovered, personally, that when we were, at for my wife’s training at theological college, and we moved to Bristol for two years and I got back into men biking and the way we translated as we kind of realized how much less of a difficult person I was with my family, like with my wife and my kids, after I’d been out my bike for a few hours.
00:17:14:15 – 00:17:24:04
Speaker 1
And, and certainly my wife might have hinted earlier today that I haven’t been at my bike in a few weeks, and that’s showing not quite sure what she means, but.
00:17:24:06 – 00:17:29:18
Speaker 2
I will often tell me next you need to go for a run.
00:17:29:20 – 00:17:57:03
Speaker 1
There’s no best. It’s a really a week. So we’ve we’ve had a good solution and joke around about what it looks like and, and and that’s sort of how and maybe tell me just for a few minutes about why, why did why did this start. And this is relevant. Yeah. You mentioned that you’ve, you’ve been a pioneer minister for 15 years and lifting, yeah.
00:17:57:03 – 00:18:08:15
Speaker 1
Why why why did you get into the pioneer ministry and then specifically why why did you feel the need to start these communities that you’re running?
00:18:08:17 – 00:18:34:12
Speaker 2
Yeah. So I got, you know, I, planted a fresh expression, with a vineyard in, the northwest. And leather stands back in 2008, we were asked we we applied to do this job for a charity to, run the, coffee shop and Christian bookshop and, and sort of plant a church as part of that.
00:18:34:12 – 00:18:57:06
Speaker 2
And we ended up planting a couple of little sort of congregations, one that was kind of youth oriented and one that was more kind of adult focused. And that was a really privileged experience. It didn’t last long. The charity were quite ambitious, I think, and didn’t realize how much money it was going to cost. So we didn’t it didn’t last very long, unfortunately, and we weren’t able to stay in and and and not get paid, unfortunately.
00:18:57:06 – 00:19:22:08
Speaker 2
You know, that was just the way I faced, you know, with the so we ended up, moving away, after just over a year. But that experience of, growing something, that was totally contextual to that, community, something that existed where we lived. We very much we lived on the on the top floor, you know, we lived on the top floor.
00:19:22:08 – 00:19:46:12
Speaker 2
The bookshop was in the middle floor. The cafe was on the bottom. So, you know, it was absolutely, you know, in our home almost. And we came back and we were, we were part of Coventry Vineyard before, before we left Coventry. Then we moved back to our house in Coventry. And when we finished this project and, we couldn’t drive across town to go and worship in a, in a, in a, in a big room.
00:19:46:18 – 00:20:06:18
Speaker 2
We felt like we need to invest in the community where we live. That was the real kind of key moment. And that we started pulling up to our local church, happened to be an Anglican church. And and I got the call to kind of ministry. And then they were like, oh, we’re not quite sure what to do with you because you might not be a kind of regular kind of the courier type person.
00:20:06:18 – 00:20:27:09
Speaker 2
I was like, yeah, yeah, that’s probably about right. And then, I think Fresh Expressions was having some roadshows. I think Graham Cray and a few others came, and so it described what fresh expressions and pioneer ministers were. And, and I was like, oh, that’s me. I can, I can chime in with that. And, and then ended up, getting, getting a job in, in Corby.
00:20:27:11 – 00:20:54:18
Speaker 2
First time, you know, day to day doing that for their local church. And then I got ordained, did a bit more, we moved again for my career, and then we ended up here in 2019. So, we’ve. Yeah, this is like fourth or fifth community. We’ve planted, and everyone is different and everyone is and kind of burst out of our desire.
00:20:54:18 – 00:21:21:07
Speaker 2
So when you say, why has this emerged? This is it’s because of the hospitality, the people that we’ve met who have drawn us in. And it seemed and it’s been burst out of that. So the digital stuff was embraced by our running club during lockdown. I just the lockdown happened and so I started wandering through the woods recording my thoughts.
00:21:21:09 – 00:21:41:06
Speaker 2
Just to be a little bit inspirational. We were doing Digital Science Night Prayer, but during the day we were doing some other stuff, so I’d do some thoughts wandering through the forest, just encouraging people and giving people some looks at the outdoors. And, some of the running club got in touch and said, could you do some specifically for all the old Facebook group and, running club?
00:21:41:06 – 00:22:00:10
Speaker 2
And I was like, absolutely. I can spend 2 or 3 nights a week. So it sorry, 2 or 3 times a week I would do something for them and that are organized like an online quiz and stuff. So yeah, they sort of developed from there. And then some more and more people realized, you know, I that I was a Christian and b that this was kind of my job.
00:22:00:12 – 00:22:24:08
Speaker 2
And so and then more and more people were chatting to me on races, and it was very much birthed out of, the connections that we had. And, and I was honest, and I was like, you know, my job is to start some new stuff here. What’s the kind of stuff that would slightly about, you know, what would you be interested in?
00:22:24:08 – 00:22:41:10
Speaker 2
People said, you know, well, something this outdoors, there’s walking and running and we, we piloted it a few times doing stations of the Cross on Good Friday. So we used to we there every year we sort of run 14 miles and do a station across each each mile.
00:22:41:12 – 00:22:43:00
Speaker 1
Nice.
00:22:43:02 – 00:23:20:12
Speaker 2
So we did that the first time, I think in 2021. And we’ve done that every year and people and when then we did the odd one through the year and then it finally got to the state. So not this Easter, just on the Easter before that. We’ve never stopped taking them. So, it’s sort of it’s a really slow process, but I’ve discovered before, one of the handy things of having having planted a few fresh expressions is often patience really pays off because what you create or aspires, not even what I create, but what’s best out of out of what.
00:23:20:12 – 00:23:45:01
Speaker 2
And then what emerges is, is something that is genuinely rooted in the community. And a desire for the community is not a great idea. I’ve had that. I’m then trying to get people to come to all the time. Well, it’s a, you know, it’s something that people want and have expressed a need for, and it’s something that we can do.
00:23:45:03 – 00:24:15:24
Speaker 1
There’s rallies where we’re steaming through our time. But I think this is an important question. And, and it’s, it’s it’s author of the back of this very important point of life. Fresh expressions. As you say, they tend to come naturally from places where there is a need, where someone happens to be there to fulfill that need, or someone goes to fulfill that need.
00:24:16:01 – 00:24:41:12
Speaker 1
But one of the things that you said before was that you’ve done over the years, you said this is what your fourth or fifth community in. And I realize some maybe one of the criticisms that fresh expressions have, is that they don’t last. Now, I think you and I will understand that there’s a there’s a key context to that.
00:24:41:14 – 00:25:04:05
Speaker 1
And I think sometimes there are fresh expressions that are in a design to last. And some of them. Yeah, through no fault of our own. Last and some go on for years and years and years. Yeah. What was your thought on, on the idea of those that might be critical of the idea of the concept of fresh expressions?
00:25:04:07 – 00:25:07:12
Speaker 1
When they don’t necessarily last?
00:25:07:14 – 00:25:30:16
Speaker 2
I think. So the reason a lot of what we’ve I mean, don’t get me wrong. So what we started flopped fairly quickly. And and one of the, the things as I’ve got more experience is I’ve learned to fail faster and and harder. So when stuff doesn’t work is just go, you know what’s not working? Let’s stop. But let’s do something that’s, you know, let’s shift our energy into something that is is bearing fruit.
00:25:30:16 – 00:25:47:24
Speaker 2
Because if it’s not working, there’s there’s no point in this sitting there in an empty room for 12 weeks straight because we said we’re going to do it for 12 weeks, you know, why not just, you know, after the fourth week of nobody turning up? And you know what? It’s okay. It’s not. It’s fine. Stop. So that’s one thing.
00:25:47:24 – 00:26:21:13
Speaker 2
The other thing is, you know, it’s often not our choice to stop. You know, in Corby, my, my job came to an end, and I was asked to go somewhere else for my my curiosity, for my training post. So we left and unfortunately, It was passed on to somebody else who didn’t have the time because they had two other churches to look after and say, you know, that that that one, you know, the other things, you know, have have sustained in a little ways.
00:26:21:15 – 00:26:50:11
Speaker 2
But one of the things that we’ve we’ve been quite intentional about here is to try and make what develops quite low resource, not only for the people who attend, but for me, you know. So all Moore’s Pilgrim’s takes is some organization and half a days of my probably half a day route planning and then half a day going out and checking the route ahead of time and then doing it.
00:26:50:13 – 00:27:10:07
Speaker 2
Yeah. You know, it doesn’t take too much time. The relationship building, of course, that takes, you know, and building the community and all that, that takes you huge amount of time. But the the practicalities of it aren’t huge. And the same with Digital Saints, you know, it doesn’t take a huge amount of, of our time to, to prepare for it.
00:27:10:09 – 00:27:12:01
Speaker 2
But you know.
00:27:12:03 – 00:27:48:22
Speaker 1
That I realize it’s, it is a, it’s that it’s a big question. And I also realize I think it’s it’s been, in some ways answered by many other people as well already. And probably most healthy answer is we’re not afraid in the fresh expressions movement to try and and and we’re not afraid to fail. Yeah. And learning that it’s okay to fail to just go and try and do something, but be prepared to pick yourself up if it doesn’t work out.
00:27:48:24 – 00:27:52:20
Speaker 1
It’s not, you know, that you are a failure. It’s just it’s just something didn’t work out.
00:27:52:20 – 00:28:15:17
Speaker 2
Yeah, I know that one. And we’ve, there was I forget who said it, and I it’s not me. But somebody did say, you know, Fresh Expressions is the R&D department of the church really is that where. And so if you if you speak to like a big automotive or technology company, they don’t expect a return from that R&D department.
00:28:15:19 – 00:28:43:17
Speaker 2
And what they expect is, is new ideas, new things that they can put into action. They don’t expect the R&D department to make money. They pay their researchers to do their stuff, and they come up with stuff. And, and, you know, the United Automotive Department, I’d imagine it’s littered with stuff that doesn’t work. But that one thing that does, you know, yeah, it’s wonderful and it’s worth its weight in gold.
00:28:43:19 – 00:29:00:03
Speaker 2
And we’ve seen some stuff come out of fresh expressions. Those projects that people have been able to, you know, pick up and run with, you know, things like messy church, you know, the forest church movement is huge. You know, something that we’re you know, we’re kind of on the edge of as well, sort of doing some kind of wild church type stuff.
00:29:00:05 – 00:29:12:02
Speaker 2
There’s lots of stuff that people are coming up with and can engage with a great or a lesser extent. And those wouldn’t have happened without somebody having had the time to, to be able to do something different.
00:29:12:04 – 00:29:17:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. Let’s move on a bit because we really we are getting really short on time.
00:29:17:13 – 00:29:20:12
Speaker 2
That’s okay.
00:29:20:14 – 00:29:43:18
Speaker 1
Something we’ve been asking people is, is pioneers often at their on their own. Oh, and even if they have team like and like you seem to have and others seem to have, it’s it can sometimes be a lonely journey. How do you how do you keep yourself well. And so how do you keep yourself? Well, we ask, how do you keep yourself?
00:29:43:18 – 00:29:47:16
Speaker 1
Well, both spiritually, mentally, physically.
00:29:47:18 – 00:30:09:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. So, I’m very lucky there. There are few less of us now, but there were a dozen people with my role here in the Dos York. So we meet up once a month, at our, dos and retreat center, and we have some input sometimes. Sometimes we just hang out and pray for each other and share our struggles.
00:30:09:10 – 00:30:34:21
Speaker 2
Other times, you know, we’ll we’ll have some input from, from somebody like, we just had somebody come and talk to us about systematic theology, which was not I don’t think my brain was quite ready for it, but it was really interesting. But yeah, so I’m really lucky with that. I have a spiritual director as well, who I try and see maybe 5 or 6 times a year, who keeps me on the straight and narrow and has really experience gets pioneering.
00:30:34:23 – 00:30:54:19
Speaker 2
And we’ve been working together for probably about ten years. So, you know, that’s that’s really good. Physically, I love to run and I make sure I get outside at least once a day, if not more. And I have a good physio who looks after my my aging body.
00:30:54:21 – 00:31:24:00
Speaker 1
That’s helpful. I wonder if, I wonder if you have any stories without necessarily having to name names of people that have you got maybe at least one story? Short story of of where you’ve seen someone be transformed or see someone’s life be really impacted by the power of the spirit or by the story of Jesus.
00:31:24:00 – 00:31:26:14
Speaker 1
And through the work that you’ve been doing.
00:31:26:16 – 00:31:31:03
Speaker 2
Reese, my physio is a great example. So.
00:31:31:05 – 00:31:32:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.
00:31:32:10 – 00:31:50:13
Speaker 2
We got to see Reese for, what, 4 or 5 years now? Pretty much since we. Yeah, he he sees a lot of people out running club and it’s a bit like going to the hairdresser or or something like that. You know, you’re with somebody in a room for an extended period of time and you got to talk as or you just sit there in silence.
00:31:50:13 – 00:32:14:06
Speaker 2
So, you know, he has to put up with me for a good 45 minutes to an hour, once a month, if I worry if I’m injured more often, which is worse for him. Okay. And we chat and, you know, he’s been one of the biggest, evangelists of our work because he kind of started joining digital science quite early on, and he tells loads of his clients about it.
00:32:14:08 – 00:32:37:23
Speaker 2
And he comes on, on, pilgrimages. And, you know, he’s really and he is always asking me, like, really deep theological questions when we go there. And sometimes I say, I’ve no idea. My what do you think? Well, well, bounce it back and forth and, and sometimes I’ll send him something later. But, you know, Reese is just so deep and he’s, he can do this stuff so carefully.
00:32:37:23 – 00:32:59:22
Speaker 2
But he’s been really, you know, just that, amazing kind of natural evangelist who, who, you know, I had the one of the things that kind of really solidified our relationship. I was very funny. He was saying, oh, I can’t, and we’re trying to get, our kid baptized and I can’t find anywhere locally, and I.
00:33:00:01 – 00:33:20:13
Speaker 2
Well, I was looking after church here. They were without a vicar in our parish, so I ended up looking after it for a year, doing services a couple of times a month and then picking up all the baptisms, which is a lot. And, I said, well, look, my, I’m doing baptisms all the time. I said, let’s book you.
00:33:20:13 – 00:33:40:03
Speaker 2
And he said, well, could you do it? And I’m like, yeah, we’ve got a connection. I think we’ve known each other like for years. Like look good. All right. Yeah, we can do that. So, you know, I baptize little Henry, and you know that that’s been great, you know? And it’s it’s those kind of things. It’s getting.
00:33:40:05 – 00:34:01:16
Speaker 2
It’s being real and being honest, and and I think because he sees, me as a client, you know, not not not as a vicar necessarily. You know, I’m he’s there to fix, fix my body after I’ve done silly things to running crazy distances that, you know, he, you know, he, he sees me as a genuine person. So that’s.
00:34:01:18 – 00:34:45:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. And it’s I’ll say it’s also sort of very evident the fact that it’s relational, you know, so that’s that, that’s asking for that from you only comes because out of trust which only comes from relationship over. Yeah. Yours as you’ve said, as we come to a close because we do have to close. I always want to see what people have to say to those who might be listening, who are in that space where many of us have been going this doesn’t quite fit me.
00:34:45:19 – 00:35:14:01
Speaker 1
And, so people who might be new to fresh expressions and indeed, you know, also there’s we also know there’s plenty of people out there who are sort of and experienced, practitioners who’ve been doing this for a long time and might be in between places or might be having a hard time. And so I always ask, well, what do you say to those all those different people to inspire them to either have a go or keep going or start something new?
00:35:14:03 – 00:35:43:20
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think the key to all the kind of really good relationships I’ve had, the I’ve burst into something sustainable, have been where I have been guests, where I’ve been offered hospitality by a group of people. So like the running club invited me to do stuff. It wasn’t me going in wanting to do stuff. So I would always say, you know, what’s the part of your the first thing is, what are you doing that doesn’t that has nothing to do with church.
00:35:43:20 – 00:36:18:00
Speaker 2
What are you doing? And if that if you can’t answer that question, then I’d say no, that’s your problem. Like so. If all your friends are Christian and all your social life involves Christians, then you’re never going to be able to plant a church or plant the first expression, because you need to know people. In other situations, whether it’s at work, whether it’s through, you know, a club or a sport or a, you know, people you meet that when you walk the dog or whatever it might be, or people you meet at the school gate, whatever it is, if you don’t know people who who need to know Jesus in some way,
00:36:18:02 – 00:36:45:23
Speaker 2
then and where are those places where you’re feeling as guest, but you’re being given hospitality because where are you being invited in? Where are the people, where who want to hang out with you? Spend more time with them. You know, I have been wracked with guilt sometimes because I well, have gone and disappeared into the moors for 5 or 6 hours, running with 3 or 4 people.
00:36:46:00 – 00:37:11:13
Speaker 2
But you know what? That time that I’ve invested with them, it’s paid off because we have a great relationship, and most a lot of those people come to most pilgrims now because they have a relationship with me. And and it’s that, you know, it’s don’t be afraid to invest in stuff that doesn’t look like it’s kind of birth into some fresh expression tomorrow.
00:37:11:13 – 00:37:36:03
Speaker 2
Just see where it goes, because you’ll be surprised, you know, and and trust that God’s God’s God’s got you. Pray about it as you go and just just be to see how it happens. Because, you know, those are the places that the I think we end up finding, you know, really, really powerful stuff emerging.
00:37:36:05 – 00:37:39:22
Speaker 1
Amazing. Nick.
00:37:39:24 – 00:38:18:05
Speaker 1
I feel we’ve merely but scratched the surface, of of so much stuff and it’s it’s. Yes. Some of the stuff we said is some of the stuff you said it’s been challenging for me personally. And and just really wonderful. I think it confirms a lot of things that, that we’ve spoken about, with others, and, yeah, I really quite enjoyed the aspect of, digital crossing over to in person.
00:38:18:07 – 00:38:43:04
Speaker 1
Because we’ve, we’ve, we’ve spoken to someone before who has it’s fully digital and they never get to meet some of the people that they minister to. And, and we spoke to the people who, who do, pilgrimage. In different ways. But when those two are colliding in the way that you’re doing, it’s really, really interesting. So thank you for your time.
00:38:43:06 – 00:38:43:23
Speaker 2
You’re welcome.
00:38:44:01 – 00:39:03:01
Speaker 1
Thank you for being on. We the team will, as always, be praying for you, wishing you all the best. And, yeah, hoping we hear more stories of less stories of your body hurting and more stories of, you introducing people to Jesus.
00:39:03:03 – 00:39:15:02
Speaker 2
Well, yeah. Well, I’ve I’ve I’ve just started working part time as a prison chaplain, and so things are beginning to emerge there. So really, maybe I can come on in a few years time and tell you about how that’s working out.
00:39:15:04 – 00:39:19:19
Speaker 1
Amen. Let’s kick it in next. Let’s see mate, thank you for your time. Take care.
00:39:19:21 – 00:39:26:13
Speaker 2
Just bye bye.
00:39:26:15 – 00:39:45:17
Speaker 1
Thanks for listening to this episode. Hope you enjoyed it. If you want to find out more about Nick and the group that he’s involved in, you can find it on Facebook at facebook.com. Forward slash DG thanks. If you want to connect with us, you can do so via our socials and through our main website. All of that is on fresh expressions for UK.
00:39:45:19 – 00:40:03:12
Speaker 1
And finally, if you’ve been inspired by what you’ve heard today but you’re unsure of where to start, godsend is our amazing toolkit for creating new Christian communities. There’s loads of practical advice and real life stories. It’s a brilliant starting point to visit godsend GCloud. Take care.