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Show notes:
Mike Moynagh explores how the church, as a gift of grace, can practice healthy giving and mutuality in relationships, fostering inclusivity and deeper community engagement.
- Guest: Mike Moynagh
- Buy the book here: freshexpressions.org.uk/shop
- Episode host: Simon Goddard – fx Rescourcing
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
00:00:04:01 – 00:00:26:14
Speaker 1
Hey, and welcome to the Mission Shaped Podcast. We’ve got some bonus content for you today, revisiting a recent live stream where my colleague Simon Goddard interviews Mike Moyer about his new book, Giving the Church. I hope you enjoy.
00:00:26:16 – 00:00:53:19
Speaker 2
Welcome, welcome. My name’s Simon Goddard. I’m from Fresh Expressions. I lead on resourcing within fresh expressions. And I’m really pleased to welcome you to this lunchtime conversation. This chat with, Mike, Moyer. I am really pleased that you’ve, you’re watching this video or listening to this recording. Or if you’re here live. I’m really pleased, for that too.
00:00:53:21 – 00:01:20:18
Speaker 2
And, however you’re watching or listening, I invite you to interact with us, write something in the comment, and if you are watching or listening to us live, we may be able to interact with those comments during our conversation. And, today, Mike, we know each other quite well. You’re the author of, the godsend book that, is a key part of the resources that we offer to those starting new Christian, communities.
00:01:20:20 – 00:01:42:24
Speaker 2
But we’re here today to talk about your new book, Giving the Church. So as we begin that conversation, it’d be really good, for you just to introduce yourself. What, what puts you in the position to be able to write what you’re writing? Today. Tell us a little bit about your history and how you’ve come, to, to write this book.
00:01:43:01 – 00:02:03:23
Speaker 3
Well, I could answer that. My main qualification for writing this book is that years ago, I wrote a PhD on a history of the Fiji sugar industry. But I think that Blackfoot, of all your listeners and viewers. But over the years long. Yeah. Since then, I’ve become ordained. I’m an ordained minister in the Church of England.
00:02:04:00 – 00:02:26:20
Speaker 3
And I’ve been involved with, fresh expressions of church, new types of Christian community for the last 25 years or so. I’ve written all sorts of books about the subject, some of quite popular books, 2 or 3, more academic books. I’m really interested in the theology of these new Christian communities, but I’m really interested in the methodology.
00:02:26:21 – 00:02:39:22
Speaker 3
How do they work? So I’ve been involved. It’s that I’ve been involved in advocating for these communities, consulting and coaching individuals involved. I’ve been involved with that for last, you know, 20, 25 years.
00:02:39:24 – 00:02:40:13
Speaker 2
Great.
00:02:40:15 – 00:02:58:03
Speaker 3
So I should say, perhaps I should add, just to make myself look a little bit more credible that I probably really am. That I have a base, at Wycliffe Hall in Oxford. I’m associated with, so that gives me a tiny smidgen of academic credibility, I think.
00:02:58:05 – 00:03:21:03
Speaker 2
But I think my, for those, that that know you, you’re able to write, quite thick tomes academically. And yet, I think what you’re also able to do is to take, some of that academic thinking and deep thinking that you do and create and communicate it in ways that are, similar, that for people like me to understand it through.
00:03:21:04 – 00:03:30:23
Speaker 2
And that’s, that’s a real knack that you have. So as we talk about this particular book, giving the church, just tell us why why you wrote it.
00:03:31:00 – 00:03:54:06
Speaker 3
Well, I raise you, Simon, because, if you were to do a course on the doctrine of the church yet probably could be given that your first book to read a book by Roman Catholic Avery Dallas. And what he does is to set out six models of the church. The church is an institution. Church is community. The church is a herald proclaiming the gospel, the church as a sacrament, and and so on.
00:03:54:08 – 00:04:17:09
Speaker 3
And as I thought about those six models, one of the things that wasn’t, is the church is a gift. And if you read the literature about church, yeah, giving is assumed. Generosity is assumed. It’s a sin. The church is a gift from God. It should be a gift to the world. But no one’s really explored that as a theme in its own right.
00:04:17:11 – 00:04:39:18
Speaker 3
And I find that really interesting because, you know, our whole theology is based on grace, and on Christ as a gift. And so if Jesus is a gift, his body should also be a gift. And so actually unpacking that and seeing what it means, is really interesting. I think. And so that’s what I want you to do and see where it took me.
00:04:39:18 – 00:04:55:07
Speaker 3
And so my kind of overarching question in the book is, could the church as a gift be a seventh model of gift of church to put alongside is all the six okay.
00:04:55:08 – 00:05:10:01
Speaker 2
And so, so as you as you wrote this book, the what struck me most, most powerfully, do you think is, as you put the book together, you got that initial idea of the church as a gift? Well, but what was striking you as you wrote the book?
00:05:10:03 – 00:05:39:00
Speaker 3
I found it really powerful as a way of revisiting the some of the traditional themes in ecclesiology doctrine as a church, themes about what is the church themes about the full marks of the church, but also about inclusion and exclusion, a visible, invisible church. I found that, really helpful that it gave new insights into that, but in particular, what I found was that it seemed to give us a new language.
00:05:39:02 – 00:06:00:22
Speaker 3
And you were thinking about the great task that we have today, which is how do we multiply new Christian communities? How do we do church planting or whatever language you want to use? And, you know, in my denomination to Church of England, they’ve got a target of 10,000 new worshiping communities, and all the denominations have equivalent targets.
00:06:00:24 – 00:06:30:00
Speaker 3
And this question of starting new Christian communities, it’s shot up the agenda because it’s a great fear, unreasonable fear that the church is on its last legs. Unless we start these new communities with new people, the church is going to disappear. The problem is that in the pews and for most of us, it’s not very motivational to say go and start new worshiping communities, because if you don’t, we’re all going to be dead.
00:06:30:02 – 00:06:49:06
Speaker 3
For some people that erstwhile. But for many of us sitting in the pews, oh gosh, this is just too big a problem. However, if we talk about the church as a gift and God calls us to give the heart of the church’s life, which is to make life with Jesus, God calls us to give that gift to others.
00:06:49:08 – 00:07:12:07
Speaker 3
And when we do that with being like God in God’s self, we’re being generous in the way that echo of of how God is generous, then that I think, is much more motivational. It’s very simple. You don’t have to be a very sophisticated Christian to get this is what it’s about. It’s about being kind, being generous, being loving.
00:07:12:09 – 00:07:34:08
Speaker 3
Such a really simple idea, but it’s actually quite heartwarming. Isn’t this what we’re called to do to be generous to the world in the way that, the a God is generous to us? And of course, there are lots and lots of ways we can be generous, you know, we can share our resources. We can, you know, put ourselves on display through Christian art of music and so on.
00:07:34:08 – 00:07:54:22
Speaker 3
So there are lots of ways of being generous. We can join campaigns for social justice and environmental justice and so on. But I want to say that all that is true, but the prime way in which we can be generous is to get to the heart of our life. Because when you know the heart, you go, life is the most precious thing you can give.
00:07:54:24 – 00:08:20:19
Speaker 3
And precious gifts are reserved for precious people. So when we give to the world or offer to the world the heart of our life, which is communal life with Jesus, when we do that, we make a hugely important statement about how precious other people are to us. And so, you know, and as I say in the book, you know, there’s no other organization in the world which offers communion with Jesus.
00:08:20:19 – 00:08:41:23
Speaker 3
Only the church can do that. And so it’s a hugely important thing to do, and we need to do it sensitively and carefully. It’s a great calling. And of course, when you offer the church’s life in the form of new Christian communities, so you multiply these get communities, you then multiply all the other kinds of giving that church can do.
00:08:41:24 – 00:09:05:12
Speaker 3
You multiply, volunteer, multiply. But I actually you multiply joining forces into social justice and all the rest. So, you each if you multiply the heart of the church’s lot, you’re just good to accelerate and increase abundantly the generosity of the church, which in turn is the generosity of God. So for me, this is a really exciting thing.
00:09:05:14 – 00:09:30:03
Speaker 3
I think, in a, in a, in a church like my church, which is quite driven by managerial objectives, you know, how many new communities are you going to plant? You won’t get the money if you don’t. It’s all quite growth driven. And you know, that makes a point. You know, growth is the ideology of capitalism. You know, it’s all quite disheartening.
00:09:30:05 – 00:09:42:19
Speaker 3
And so something like giving a little the theology is you could use it would be helpful, but something like giving compare heart warming a theology to underpin what we’re doing might.
00:09:42:21 – 00:10:05:01
Speaker 2
That’s great. And I’m just got another question, that you may have already touched on as you talk about the different types of generosity, but I’m just thinking we’re talking a couple of years after Covid. And I know in some parts of the church, you know, things feel a bit more difficult. There’s a sense in which resources are limited.
00:10:05:01 – 00:10:25:06
Speaker 2
And so, that this I find the idea of generosity motivating and inspiring. But there may be some people who are thinking, you know, what have we got to give, you know? So I guess the question is generosity always a good thing? You know, are we always in a position to be generous or, you know, is it.
00:10:25:10 – 00:10:30:02
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we shouldn’t be generous. All right.
00:10:30:04 – 00:11:00:16
Speaker 3
Well, I think the best simple answer to that question. I think there are some congregations there just to protest, battered and and, and disheartened to really be expected to give very much. They might be able to give a tiny bit, but their capacity to give has been really wounded. And it’s like individuals, isn’t it? You know, if you’re a wounded person, your capacity to be generous to others is seriously impaired.
00:11:00:18 – 00:11:27:06
Speaker 3
I think we just need to recognize that. And we need to love those congregations to bits, because the only way to heal wounded, disheartened, fragile congregations is just to love. You’re not going to, you know, exhortation won’t do it. But I do think that’s universal across the church. I’m struck, I remember hearing ages ago about a tiny little Methodist church that was, you know, quite disheartened.
00:11:27:06 – 00:11:48:16
Speaker 3
And the new minister got them together about 15 and, and just said, you know, they read acts chapter two about the march of the church and that discussion, you know, is this what we’re like visiting their web ward? We’ve heard the same sermon for 50 years about. I’ve seen it, and, and they had all the marks of being a disheartened, dispirited church.
00:11:48:16 – 00:12:19:03
Speaker 3
But someone said, you know, over there they, set themselves up cafe style. So why don’t we do that? Why don’t we just meet round tables with coffee and see and see what happens, and they grew from 15 to 25 people. So what I’m saying is that even the most dispirited church congregation may be surprised by if they do something a little bit different, they can to become a gift.
00:12:19:05 – 00:12:54:07
Speaker 3
And of course, within a group of 16 people who are dispirited, there may be one person or two people. We’ve got a tiny bit of energy, and it’s amazing. 1 or 2 people can do. So. Yeah. I think, you know, we are in a difficult position. Absolutely. Post-Covid. But, you know, yeah, I sometimes joke with people, you know, every morning I’ll wake up in hope and go to bed in despair, but, but I do think that within the difficult situation we find ourselves that there are lots of potential sparks.
00:12:54:09 – 00:13:06:06
Speaker 3
But it’s finding the things and the theology of generosity could be just one of the found that helps bring alive the flames that are lying dormant.
00:13:06:08 – 00:13:27:24
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah, that’s that’s really helpful. And just, sort of related to that. And when we think about the church as a gift, you know, giving the church, that’s what we’re talking about. And I think you’ve you’ve been quite precise, actually, what we’re offering as a gift is communal life for Jesus. So, it’s not the church per se.
00:13:27:24 – 00:13:50:15
Speaker 2
It’s what’s at the heart of church, which is this communal life with with Jesus. But it’s is the church a gift that anyone, would want to receive? I sort of ask that slightly tongue in cheek, but you hear the question, you know, it’s this church that we’ve got. Is it something that people want to receive?
00:13:50:17 – 00:14:11:18
Speaker 3
Well, I found it really interesting writing this book. When I did my first draft, I knew this as important question. I thought, well, halfway through the introduction, I’ll deal with it. But when I gave it to 1 or 2 people to read, I found that they were actually struggling with a book after paragraph four that if I hadn’t addressed this question in paragraph four, they really weren’t interested.
00:14:11:20 – 00:14:37:00
Speaker 3
And what I found was in my sample of about six people, was that the evangelicals were much less likely to ask this question than people who came from other traditions, and, they would call themselves liberals, but people are that sort of wing of the church were much more likely to be very self-critical of the church and to be aware of its limitations.
00:14:37:02 – 00:15:01:24
Speaker 3
And so I think we do have to take seriously that the church is bad news for many people. You know, you got to think of the sexual sex abuses, the cover ups. You’ve just got to go through history and and think of the various wars and atrocities that the church has been involved with. And you don’t have to go back in history to, to, to find that around the world.
00:15:02:01 – 00:15:28:09
Speaker 3
You know, that there is a lot that the church can be slimed off and needs to repent of. And as I’ve wrestled with this, I think, you know, clearly, one response to, the, the, the the bad news of the church is for the church to simply be honest about that, to admit it, to, repent.
00:15:28:11 – 00:15:55:08
Speaker 3
And also to say, you know, if you feel ashamed, we can stand alongside you because we feel ashamed that if we just feel that you have done wrong, we can stand alongside you because we’ve done wrong. If you feel that, you know, that that really, you know even very much that your life is under threat in terms of meaning of your life.
00:15:55:12 – 00:16:21:19
Speaker 3
Or we can stand alongside you because we feel ourselves to be a bit meaningless and under threat. And so admitting our own, failures, can help us decide on other people who have that sense of failure. But going beyond that, as I wrote the book, I kept thinking to myself, you know, the antidote to all that we’ve done wrong is to be generous.
00:16:21:21 – 00:16:40:23
Speaker 3
If if we want to be a church is good news. We just need to give to all the people. I mean, that’s the good news. Now, of course, you need to give in a good way. We could talk about good and bad giving, but, being generous is the LG goes to all the stuff that makes the church unattractive to people.
00:16:41:01 – 00:16:48:07
Speaker 3
We want to be a nice church, an attractive church. We need to be generous. Giving church.
00:16:48:09 – 00:17:09:00
Speaker 2
A great mic. I got so many questions. I’m having. Read, bits of the book. I’m, What I hear you touching on. But in the second part, maybe you can just give us an overview of the two parts of the book that we’ll just do that. Then I’ll ask you a question from, from, that touches on what you’re just saying.
00:17:09:00 – 00:17:11:12
Speaker 2
But for part, the second part of the book.
00:17:11:14 – 00:17:34:04
Speaker 3
So the first part of the book, really deals with some of the big doctrinal themes, in, in, in the doctrine of the church. So, you know, I just set up the notion of the church as a gift and explain why that makes sense. I hope others agree with me. Then, you know, I’m saying, okay, if you open up the gift, what does it look like?
00:17:34:04 – 00:17:57:12
Speaker 3
What is the nature of the church? And then, I’ve said, you know, let’s look at the full marks of the church. How does that look different? Those marks, the marks of, you know, one holy, Catholic and apostolic. How do they spell launch? Look different? Do we look at them through the lens of generosity? Likewise, the great, you know, invisible, invisible church.
00:17:57:14 – 00:18:17:14
Speaker 3
There are a number of different ways of framing that. Again, I said, how does each way of framing that look different? If we approach it through the eyes of giving? And then the really important question for today, what about the church being inclusive as opposed to being exclusive? Again, I want you to approach that through the lens of generosity.
00:18:17:16 – 00:18:38:14
Speaker 3
How does that make a difference? And then in the second half of the book, I wanted to talk about what healthy giving looks like because, you know, in some languages not everyone knows this, but in some languages, gift and poison come from the same source, which is really interesting. And a lot of course, a lot of giving is manipulative, isn’t it?
00:18:38:16 – 00:18:59:19
Speaker 3
And it puts it makes people dependent and it’s very unattractive. And so, Oscar was there’s a great little essay talking about this and just saying how willful giving is, brilliant, how we shouldn’t be generous at all. And some of the postmodern writers have picked up this theme as also. So, I really wanted to talk about what healthy giving looks like.
00:18:59:19 – 00:19:26:11
Speaker 3
And so that, there’s a framework, which is, you know, receiving for you give giving appropriately. Letting go, accepting the gift, giving back and being transformed. And I’ve approached that in the second half again through 4 or 5 lenses. I’ve posted sociological, drawing on the psychology of giving, and relating it to Jesus Christ.
00:19:26:13 – 00:20:03:16
Speaker 3
Then I preached it from the point of view of liberation theology and said liberation theology inputs into that those themes, but also is transformed by those themes of giving. And then, you know, and, and I said that for that one of the priorities of the church is to give to those in power to hurt marginalized, you know, if it’s in the workplace and says people are being bullied, then you might start with and then, there’s a chapter in which I pick up the same 5 or 6, themes and relate them to conversations.
00:20:03:18 – 00:20:23:19
Speaker 3
And, you know, there’s a, there’s a whole theological strand, the Protestant style, that the church is a herald, that church is proclamation. Now, that always feels very one sided. So I come back and say, no, we don’t need to have that one sided approach. Let’s talk about the church is God’s gift of conversation, and the church is God’s conversation with the world and the world.
00:20:23:19 – 00:20:47:02
Speaker 3
Conversation with God. If that’s what the church is, what happens in conversations we give to each other? You know, we’re all the time giving our contributions and receiving our contributions and giving back. So again, I try to pick up these six themes of receiving first, giving appropriately, and so on, and relate them to, to, to the literature on good conversations and how can we be a healthy conversational church?
00:20:47:04 – 00:21:08:07
Speaker 3
And then lastly, I pick the same thing up. Let’s say you set things up in relation to the Eucharist because the Eucharist, Holy Communion is giving par excellence. So how can we think about Holy Communion in relation to these, its themes and how it is Holy Communion? Help us as we think about these six themes. So that is just kind of, bread to the church.
00:21:08:07 – 00:21:26:22
Speaker 3
So what I’ve been trying to do is to, use giving as a way of, of, looking at some of the big, themes in recent literature on the church. A as was to think of, you know, how do we make this real in our everyday lives as we try to multiply the church?
00:21:26:24 – 00:21:48:24
Speaker 2
That’s great. So you touched on that. The question that I was going to ask, which was about power and the power dynamics in in the process of giving and you talked about us a while, about, about giving, but there is a, I love the way that you talk about giving. It’s it’s not in a manipulative way.
00:21:49:00 – 00:22:08:21
Speaker 2
It’s it’s, there’s a sort of a mutuality about it, which I, and a sort of an awareness of when we’re when we have an awareness of the power dynamics involved in giving that the church ends up in a more sort of humble place.
00:22:08:23 – 00:22:09:12
Speaker 3
Neat.
00:22:09:14 – 00:22:21:13
Speaker 2
Place with those is and that idea of conversation in conversation with rather than imposing upon. I think it’s a powerful within, within, the book. I think.
00:22:21:15 – 00:22:47:15
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think we can understand missionaries as conversation, really. And, the same receiving first, which occurs all through these chapters, is really important because if you go and say, we’ve got a lot to give you, you know, I remember one clergy coming into the chapter meeting and saying, oh, we’ve arrived as a church, but we’re here to bless you and everyone else in the chapter that she’s furious.
00:22:47:17 – 00:23:19:22
Speaker 3
You know, it felt patronizing. Whereas if we, if we come in our context and say, you know, you’ve got lots to give to us, help us. Yeah, we’ve got problems with safeguarding you guys outside the church. You know how to deal with this. Help us. So if we come with an open house ready to receive from the world, then, but then I make ourselves dependent on the world first, then, this is this is much more healthy.
00:23:19:24 – 00:23:37:01
Speaker 3
And likewise, you know, one of the important aspects of giving is letting go. You know, a gift is not a gift unless you let go. And if you hang on to it, it’s not really a gift at all. So letting go involves risk. The gift may be used in ways you didn’t expect, and it may surprise you.
00:23:37:03 – 00:23:56:14
Speaker 3
And you may be disappointed, too, in how it’s used. And that’s part of the inevitable playing of giving. I mean, giving is joyful, you know, giving as associate. You can celebration of Christmas and birthdays and things like that. So we don’t want to get too heavy about this terrific joy in giving appropriately and seeing the single gift welcomed.
00:23:56:16 – 00:24:21:01
Speaker 3
But there are times when you give a precious gift and it’s abused, you know, and and the needy. The congregation you plant perhaps, becomes a little bit heretical, doesn’t go the direction that you hope. And that’s a risk you take. And Jesus took that risk right at the beginning, you know, when, you know, all his disciples were gathered, you know, Matthew 28, it says the son still does it.
00:24:21:03 – 00:24:38:24
Speaker 3
You know, Jesus response to the doubt was to say, well, you get it, folks, I’m off here. We go back over to you. You take the church forward. So, we need to I think, people touched on that. The gift. Okay. And that’s when it becomes healthy giving. And of course, that needs to be returned giving as well.
00:24:39:04 – 00:25:06:22
Speaker 3
And that that becomes really healthy. I love thinking about this today. I mean, if they often I come across parties and so on who, you know, say, oh, you know, the church, the mainstream church, they’re not interested in community. They don’t take it seriously. You know, I want to say you’ve got it. Well, look, your new community needs to take the initiative of giving back to the church.
00:25:06:24 – 00:25:33:24
Speaker 3
They already received a gift from the main church, which is you and the community you planted. They need to take the initiative of giving back. And as they take the initiative of giving back to their local congregation, the parent congregation then the parent congregation will become interested in this new little offspring and begin to welcome it. But as long as you’re sitting there saying, oh, they won’t come to us, they won’t come to us, you’re missing the point.
00:25:34:01 – 00:26:01:06
Speaker 3
Giving is reciprocal. And sociologists talk about giving as building relationships, and he builds relationships. When there’s a to and fro of gifts. Well, there’s been one gift from the institutional church to the new Christian community that needs to be a return gift. As that gift, church returns a gift and connects up with the local power a congregation gives to it in whatever ways are appropriate.
00:26:01:08 – 00:26:19:09
Speaker 3
Then the relationship starts to get established and the term for a gift carries on and you strengthen the relationships. So what we need to really understand, the mutuality, as you said, the mutuality of giving and its importance. It’s both sides giving to each other.
00:26:19:11 – 00:26:49:11
Speaker 2
And like, this might be the last question, but just sort of we talked a little bit, about, that the marginalized and the church as a gift to, to those that God prioritizes is on the margins of society. But, I wonder if you could talk a bit more and you’ve hinted at this a couple of times about the role or how giving the church is connected with the whole idea of of church planting and new Christian communities.
00:26:49:12 – 00:27:05:00
Speaker 2
I think you unpack that, quite nicely in the book that actually, how new Christian communities are part of that gift, of offering communal life with Christ.
00:27:05:02 – 00:27:36:08
Speaker 3
Yeah. That they are the heart of it, really. You know, all the other forms are giving really important. But, what if we just have a model of of people coming to us in our parish congregations? One our generosity is quite limited. Whereas if we go out and say we’re going to start a new Christian community with you and among you, you know, we’ll get to know you, we’ll listen to you.
00:27:36:08 – 00:27:57:01
Speaker 3
That’s part of receiving first listening to you, we’ll find ways to work with you to to start an activity of love that you, that will really bless you. And and that’s got to be appropriate to you, but it’s also going to be appropriate. Trust us to give us, you know, I mean, we’ve got certain gifts, but we don’t have all the gifts.
00:27:57:01 – 00:28:17:08
Speaker 3
I mean, if I, if I were to say I’m going to help them play soccer, that’d be completely disastrous. So if you see you smiling. Yeah, you can tell a soccer player about love watching it, but it’s never. So, I think so. So the giving us to be appropriate to the giver and to the recipient and also to the relationship between the two.
00:28:17:10 – 00:28:41:02
Speaker 3
You know, we don’t want to charge in and share Jesus, because that may be more than the relationship can carry at that time. You give what is appropriate to that relationship and the weight that you combat. So there’s appropriate giving. And then you build community as you give and then you find ways of sharing Jesus, which is a further gift.
00:28:41:04 – 00:29:05:21
Speaker 3
And of course, at each of these stages, you give your seat back. So, you know, you give this thing to people, you receive back their advice and their comments on the offers to help a lot becomes a platform for giving a property an activity to love. And you will see back for people, the regular attendance, the, support for what you’re doing.
00:29:06:00 – 00:29:35:01
Speaker 3
And that becomes a platform for the next gift, which is the gift of community. You give community, build community that people as they respond with deepening relationships, that becomes a platform they give back without deepening relationships, that becomes a platform for the next, which is a gift to sharing Jesus. And again, as people receive that gift, they’ll give back with the intelligent questions, excitement and joy as they receive that gift and that.
00:29:35:01 – 00:29:56:00
Speaker 3
Then builds a platform for the next gift, which is the gift of building a worshiping community among these people. And as they worship together and experience the joy of Jesus, then the that becomes a platform for the next, which is to go out and repeat the process with the friends and contacts that they have, and do it in the particular way that works for them.
00:29:56:02 – 00:30:27:01
Speaker 3
So you see this the, the, the cycle that we talk about, the missional journey, it’s propelled by gift and return gift gift, a return gift every stage. And so what I find really exciting is that if we have a theology for giving away new Christian communities, for fresh expressions, whatever we call them, if we have a say allergy that’s based on generosity, we also have God given to us because we’ve just noticed that this is what people do.
00:30:27:03 – 00:30:47:06
Speaker 3
We have a methodology that is also based on gift, a return gift at every stage of that journey. So, this, business of, you know, fresh expressions, it’s all about generosity through and through, through, through my like.
00:30:47:08 – 00:31:11:05
Speaker 2
I love the way that you weave all of that, in the book and, how. Yeah, we the focus on gift. And if it is a metaphor that works in the in in all of those aspects that you’ve been talking about on, on a thank you, for the book, for those of you that want to, purchase the book, you can do that at Fresh expressions.org Duke.
00:31:11:07 – 00:31:34:00
Speaker 2
Slash shop. Come to our shop where there are other books, some of them also by Mike Molnar. There. And I mentioned godsend at the beginning. You can access, the godsend resource, a godsend dot cloud, where you can also, buy the godsend. But. And what to thank you for being with us, Mike.
00:31:34:02 – 00:31:59:22
Speaker 2
I really appreciate what you’ve written here, and, I whatever time of year people might be watching this, it would make an appropriate gift, I’m sure. The snow give. Giving the gift to a friend. As well as buying it for yourself. We do have other, conversations of authors. Look out for the conversation that we have with, Ed, sorry.
00:31:59:22 – 00:32:22:16
Speaker 2
Ed. Also, Peters and, Leslie Newton about mixed ecology. And there are others in the pipeline, too. So, to join us, on our Fresh Expressions channel, via our podcast, mission show. Podcast, and other places, our social channels. We look forward to seeing you there and, catching up with you in other ways.
00:32:22:18 – 00:32:26:21
Speaker 2
Thanks very much. Like and bless you all for listening and are watching. Take care.