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Show notes:
Kate Coleman shares her personal journey and explores how METAMorph challenges leaders to embrace deep, Christ-rooted transformation in life, faith, and leadership.
- Guests: Kate Coleman
- Buy the book here: freshexpressions.org.uk/shop
- Episode host: Tim Lea – fx Networking
- Join the discussion on our Facebook group
Speaker 1
This is a mission shaped podcast. You’re listening to the authors take.
Speaker 2
Hi, my name is Tim Lee. I work for the National Fresh Expressions team. And, this, Monday lunchtime. Welcome Kate Coleman into a conversation with, me, the author. Kate is wonderful to have you. Here. How are you today?
Speaker 3
I’m good. Thank you. It’s wonderful to be here. Thank you for your very kind invitation. Is looking forward to our conversation now.
Speaker 2
Brilliant. Now, it’s great to. Great to have you, Kate. We got to know each other because we invited you to come to a ethics gathering. Probably. What was it? Let’s be well over a year goes March, wasn’t it? I remember at the time thinking, I was, slightly nervous because you got stuck in traffic. So I’m really glad that today you’ve not got stuck in traffic.
Speaker 3
No, this is one of the easier ways to make the show. I think when I arrived, I said to you, and I think I said to a few other people, did we improve your prayer life because, you know, obviously. So it was thought was, was to start a particular time and, we weren’t there.
Speaker 2
No. That’s right. It was, yeah. It did improve my prayer life quite dramatically. Is saying that. And I do remember that time when Kate and, you came and you, you ministered and you talked and you told your stories, and it was just a really fruitful time. People still talk about that. So, so. Yeah.
So. And then I got to know you because, I put myself in a position where I may feel like, you consider being a mentor to me, which I know I have incredibly appreciated over the last few months. I’ve really got to kind of know you a little bit better. And, yeah, that has been just a real gift to me and incredibly helpful in terms of me and kind of leadership journey, leadership space.
Speaker 3
It’s a huge it’s a huge privilege for me as well, to be honest. So, yeah, it’s a it’s a good place to be.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Thank you. So tell us some fun fact about yourself or something that you love.
Speaker 3
Yeah. Well, probably the thing that I love. Some people will know this, but I’m something that I love. I’m in love with. Is, I a guilty pleasure? Is my love for all butter shortbread biscuits. So, yeah, I love them more than is good for me. So I put it like that, you know. You know.
So yes, I pretty much can’t get enough of those.
Speaker 2
That we got in the, in the house at the moment.
Speaker 3
It’s not a good idea to happen in the house at the moment. Part of the problem is I’ve learned to bake in the last few years. So I can rustle them up if needed, which is also dangerous, I sorry. Yeah. So I know in the house get them as gifts so that that’s that’s a nicely fantastic.
Speaker 2
So this books that you have written metamorph which is available if you want to go by next leadership.co.uk I would slash metamorph, this book that you’ve written which talks about transforming your life and leadership and going to come on a little bit later to talking about leadership, and, how that works its way out.
So tell us, what inspired you to write this book?
Speaker 3
I guess the answer to that is, do you want the long or the short version? You know, so it’s.
Speaker 2
For the long version.
Speaker 3
Okay. It’s quite a tale. So, you know, let’s say that, in 2022, God got my attention and got my attention in a way that might not have been possible any other time. And that’s partly because 2022 was easily one of the most intense years of my life. You know that that year, just about everything went wrong.
You know, I’ve, I’ve had a few intense years, but just like everything that could go wrong pretty much went wrong. Like work, ministry, relationships, family, everything was. And I was wondering why everything was falling apart. And I was feeling like I was falling apart so that, you know, there was that those bereavement relational challenges in there, and out of seemingly nowhere in that same year, the height of the pandemic, my best friend came, as you know, you know, charmed very well.
And both of those found ourselves being fast tracked into five mostly major surgeries between us and, and we never neither of us had ever been hospitalized before. So it was, it was a major thing and told we need to do this quickly. And then, of course, there was all the other stuff that was happening, you know, in the world, you know, so the the fallout from George Floyd, that was the, the multiple leadership failure thing that’s happening all over the Christian world.
No part of the world was untouched by that. And we’re still seeing some of that. And then, of course, the church itself was struggling to pivot, you know, so that was a that was a new word for the church. And trying to pivot to face this so-called new normal. You know, so, you know, I’ve, I’ve had intense seasons, come and go in life in leadership, but this one was a deluge of stuff, and it was coming at me from every angle.
It was spiritual, emotional, physical. It was mental. It was material. It was financial. And, you know, I often say to people, you couldn’t have written it. You know, but of course I did, you know. So so I thought it into this book. It came out in this book, and I was really aware at that moment in time that, you know, all around the world, the church, Christian organizations, unions, had lost a lot of credibility due to issues of leadership.
I know we’re going to get on to that. But this was partly because of the kind of people we entrust with leadership and also how we develop leaders and what we define as success. So all the stuff I’ve been thinking about for years, the stuff I’ve been writing about, stuff I’ve been speaking about, started coming together in a way I had not ever experienced.
It. And it felt as if God had been preparing me to say something and, very specific. And, you know, the and the specific thing was metamorph, and, you know, it was just a question of walking in obedience and writing this thing. But at the time, I also felt that other people would resonate with because I think people were struggling to find language for something.
And, I started to write and I felt that actually, this might be the language lots of other people have been struggling to find. And this might really resonate. They might feel like, this is me. This. Yes. Like I believe that. So yeah, 2022 pretty much was was I know God’s time kairos moment. For me.
Speaker 2
So I’m, I mean, I’m fascinated by that. Is this because what we’ve got is this kind of a whole bunch of personal vulnerability circumstances that often, in a way, don’t mean that people go and write a book, but it feels like it was something that was within you.
Speaker 3
Yeah, I think that’s a really good way of putting it. I, I, I don’t know, you know, there’s this there’s this whole idea that sometimes the fragrance that’s in something that the something that is good, that says something doesn’t get released without some sort of crushing or something. You know, I, I had so much stuff going on, I dug into God in a way.
I don’t know that I ever done before. And, you know, I’m. I value my relationship with God. So this was a whole nother level of something. And a whole bunch of stuff stopped. I had to stop.
Speaker 2
Okay.
Speaker 3
So I was listening. So. Yeah, that combination. Did something open something up?
Speaker 2
Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. Just so openly and so honestly. So tell us then, with you going through this crisis within you, birthing this book metamorph, what are the main what are the main messages that for you? This book talks about and speaks about.
Speaker 3
So metamorphosis is essentially it’s my shorthand for leaders who understand the transformation and the transformation we desperately need in our communities and our churches and our nations and our workplaces in the world, can only come from a commitment to our own inner and outer transformation. A lot of what passes for leadership now is all about what you do on the outside.
You know, it’s all about what you achieve and accomplish… But actually, I think that the Bible has a different message. So, you know, metamorph comes from a word that we find all over the New Testament and all over the Bible, an idea that’s all over the Bible. Yeah. You know, and most Christians are very familiar with the word metanoia.
Speaker 2
Yep.
Speaker 3
And, you know, we translate that as, repentance. And it’s all about metanoia. It’s all about that ability to change our minds and change our orientation, to change our understanding and metanoia is is a theme that’s really important in leadership, because you have to stay open to new ways of thinking about things. But the word that many Christians are less familiar with, the other Greek word that most Christians are less familiar with in what I call the Christian metaverse is is metamorphosis and metanoia and metamorphosis of, our metaverse.
That’s what we should be paying attention to. But metamorphosis is all about transformation. And, you know, when most people think of metamorphosis, they think of caterpillars turning into butterflies. You know, that’s the image. And it’s the same idea for us. We’re supposed to be one thing changing into something fundamentally different on the inside. Metanoia and the outside metamorphosis.
So in in the Christian metaverse, if you like, it’s impossible to have one without the other. But we often try to do one without the other. You know, we often reduce metanoia to, a mere change of opinion, metamorphosis into making ourselves nicer, you know? But they mean so much more than that. And we we’re we’re not seeing the kind of metamorphosis that we should be seeing.
Speaker 2
And I suppose, and in my own kind of my own kind of thinking or understanding, it’s this kind of whole thing about people being converted. That’s it. It’s like there is nothing then after that and it’s, you know, we told and we in the Christian world about the crisis of discipleship. And this in a way, seems it seems to be talking about what is that continuing process.
Speaker 2
Absolutely. Cuz to follow Jesus.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. So I think part of our challenge is when we think of conversion, as you’ve said, we think of it as a one time thing, but conversion is supposed to be an ongoing process. I mean, that’s the Metamora, you know, the this constant changing of our thinking where we are constantly being, you know, in set in situations and circumstances that challenge us to are the default to the old way of thinking or have this medicine like metamorphic moment of transformation of our thinking and our behavior, the ways in which we are.
Yeah. And, those can only come if we stay attentive to the fact that that happens in every moment. We get an opportunity, every decision is an opportunity to be to demonstrate this metamorphosis, that we are actually becoming more like Jesus, or that we’re actually abandoning that track and and staying where we are. So, yeah.
Speaker 2
I’m I suppose in a way what that brings in is also then is that the, the element that this is not just in the kind of wants of a weapon in the Christian drive. This actually is the whole of life.
Speaker 3
Absolutely, absolutely. The whole of life. I think one of the things that’s really exciting to me and encouraged me, is that when people have come to the book who are not necessarily Christian believers, they may be people of other faith or maybe people have no faith at all. They’ve got excited because they’ve said, actually, this is this is what this is what leadership needs right now.
This is this is what we all need is this recognition that growth is we’re all growing up, you know, we you know, we’re growing whether we like it or not, which sample we’ve introduced to grow in a particular way. And, even those who are not believers can do that. But for us, as believers, we actually have a whole lot of help, you know, and, and we have an end point.
We know who we’re growing towards and why we’re we’re growing in that direction.
Speaker 2
And. Yeah. And I find that interesting as well, because again, it’s another kind of there’s another theological thing which goes off inside my head at that point about so, what is our Christology? How do we view Jesus? Yeah. And if you like, too often, what we end up with a picture of Jesus is a being, you know, God.
And the last time I checked, that’s spectacularly unhelpful for me. Reconciling not.
Speaker 3
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So so that there is this I think one of the wonderful things about, the description of, of Jesus in, in the New Testament, is of this, individual who, of course, is God. But that’s not all. Jesus is Jesus has stepped into our reality and you get this description of, you know, he grew in stature, you know, he grew, grew in understanding, grew in understanding of who he was really, you know, there were those moments.
Yes. But, we actually have somebody we can follow because he’s taken our path of growth. Development, change, transformation as well.
Speaker 2
Yeah. The whole second Adam picture. Yeah, yeah. So the cover of the book talks about a world being in desperate lead, not just of leaders, but actually of Christian leaders, who can navigate the complexity. And you talk about inspiring change, but to become those leaders, we must embrace the divine call to lead from our rootedness in Christ.
So tell me a little bit more about that, because it feels like that’s. That’s kind of almost the crux of what seems to be going on here, is that both there’s something within us and yeah, look a little bit more about that for us.
Speaker 3
Yeah. So, this idea that, we lead out of something, well, first of all, the idea that we lead, you know, so we lead and, the actually that we’re fundament, we’re called to that we’re called to bring about some kind of difference to make a difference. That wouldn’t have been made had we not stepped up into a space, so.
But but leading is always and certainly for Christian leaders. And I think this is something that we we need to understand in a new way. We are always in the second chair. Christian leaders are always followers in a way, whenever anything else. We can’t possibly be anything else where we are. We we, you know, I remember saying to a group of leaders, political leaders, as it happened once, the Christian leaders are not moved to bring about transformation.
They’re led. We are following. We’re following our King. We’re following our Lord. We’re following Jesus. And therefore, leadership comes out of that realization that we are constantly following. We’re watching what what is Jesus doing? Where is Jesus that what is Jesus saying? What should I then say? So that’s partly why for me, the idea of leadership is not such a major bumbling block.
I know it is for a number of others.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I gotta say, I think that word leadership, certainly I’ve been in some, some circles where actually it’s it’s, it’s got some serious baggage. Yeah. Good and or bad. And certainly in some circles I’ve heard people say, you know, well, we need to stop using that word or we need to stop, you know, looking at that and developing leaders, I just wonder and maybe that’s.
Well, I’d love to hear what you think about that, because it seems to be an integral part of what it is that you’re talking about. You know, what is leadership then?
Speaker 3
Yeah, I mean, I, I understand why there are people who think that, you know, I’ve been working in and women’s leadership for a long time. And, there are many women and men as well who really struggle, with the idea of a these words leader leadership, because of what it means to them, because of what it’s become for them.
Because they’ve seen so many poor examples. Yeah. And and, you know, it’s also true that the world leader is not it’s not a biblical word. So we could jettison it. You know, it is possible to do that, but you are left with looking for, a term that defines people or describes people or groups who do literary things.
And at the moment, we don’t have a better one. Yeah, we don’t have that one. And, you know, leadership stuff is all over the Bible, you know? So, until we have a better way of describing it and I definitely I have not come across athletic people throw all sorts of things out and not cross it. I think leader works.
It works. Well, you know, discipleship is another way of putting it, but that also has its problems because of the way it’s been used and or not used, in, well, in the past. So until we find a better word, if somebody can come up with a better word, I’ll change it. But right now, leader, we understand it and we can reinvest it with me.
We can reclaim it. So, you know, in the circles I move around in, lots of words get subverted, and they get reclaimed and subverted it. And I think this is one of those words that’s ripe for reclaiming and subverting. So I don’t think we we we need necessarily to toss it. I think we need to reinvest it with meaning, the right kind of meaning.
Speaker 2
That then fundamentally means that actually we have to change what it is that leadership look like. And the models that we have inside our head says, I. White, male, educated. Over a certain age person, in the context in which he finds himself. And that seems as though and I know my own kind of yeah, journey. Changing that and living with that is really interesting.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. But there’s also there’s a whole shift that needs to, take place and there is no problem being a white whatever age. Yeah, well, I live all of those things now. All of those. There’s no problem with that. It’s just that that’s not the only thing. I mean, leadership has been all about that in the past, but that’s that’s definitely not the biblical pattern.
God chooses and uses all kinds of people. And we also need to broaden our expectation of who God might be wanting to work in and work through in literary ways. And, and we also need to broaden our expectation of who we will be raising up, who will be encouraging, who will be creating space for. And, all of that, all of that, requires a shift in our thinking, because as much as we do, I mean, you know, it’s both of us know this.
But as much as we talk about discernment, you know, I, I move across so many church contexts and, you know, hear people talking about, oh, we need to discern, you know, who God might be, raising up for leadership. But what what people are actually doing is they’re looking for types. They often not engage in the discernment process.
They’re looking for a type of person. And, those people tend to look like them. I, you know. Yeah. So we end up with lots of many knees rather than what God might actually be doing to you.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Which is calling us to be Jesus yoked in whatever shape we are. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So just tell me then, what was the of all the chapters that you’ve written in the book? What was the most meaningful chapter for you?
Speaker 3
What is almost impossible to say because, you know, I’ve written all of those chapters because they’re all meaningful in some way. But at this moment in time, I would say the Esther chapter. So that’s that’s chapter seven. That’s the chapter that’s all about leading on purpose. And that’s the chapter this shouting the loudest to me right now because that chapter deals with four pivotal questions that, that help lead us to lead on purpose, and to lead out of their kind of bank core identity. And I’m asking myself those four questions again. Why me? Why this? Why here? Why now? You know, so those four questions are really resonating with me. And Esther saw is resonating with me in a whole new, way.
Because her story is all about, you know, the act of risking it all. And, you know, I felt that writing was a bit like that. You know, the timing fell off, the resources were insufficient. The energy was rock bottom. I knew I had some tough things to say. And, I wasn’t sure if I’d have the courage to say them, so I felt like I was in that place of Esther.
You know, if you don’t say it, you know, with Mordecai in my ear.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
You know, if you don’t step up and do this thing, God will find somebody else. But you will have missed something. And, you know, so Esther definitely is the one speaking to me loud and clear for such a time. Is this.
Speaker 2
Yeah. And that. Yeah. And those. Yeah. Those were. And it does seem as though we are.
In that space of more of kairos time than chronos time.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. I, I feel that this season that we’re in is a huge season of if, if, if God is has ever been wanting to do something. As we know, God is always wanting to do something. But it feels like this moment is stacked full of possibility. It is that kairos, as you’ve said, that time to act in certain ways, an opportunity to shift things in a way that they haven’t shifted for a long time.
They’ve kind of gone on. They’ve just gone on. But we have an opportunity to, to make a shift, a God given, a God intended, a God desired shift. And we can say yes or we can say no, not I want to be one of those who saying yes. And that’s partly why I wrote the book. I want to help all the people to say yes to.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Now I, I would echo from my own experiences spending time with you then that that’s exactly what you encourage others to do. Which is. Yeah. So what do you hope readers will take away from reading metamorph?
Speaker 3
I there are lots of things I hope for. Let me put that out there first. Blitz. I want readers, essentially. I want them to feel that they can partner with God to make something godly happen. That wouldn’t have happened if they didn’t say yes to God. I want them to feel inspired to take the journeys they need to take towards that personal community and mission transformation.
I want them to be encouraged by the biblical characters and by the scenarios and and to think that, wow, we’ve got to engage them. Maybe God will engage me, you know? And, maybe God can work through me. What I’ve tried to do with the book is to give some really real practical, practices and habits.
Yeah, yeah. You know, things that we can inhabit and, engage with the, the welcome. God, that enable God to do what God wants to do in and through our lives. So that this world can be a better place for those who follow.
Speaker 2
So if you like what you’re saying, that is this book is just not another book on leadership. It’s not about knowledge, actually. It is about fundamental change in who we are.
Speaker 3
Absolutely. In fact, one of the things I say over and over again, and it’s not that knowledge is an important, it’s just that we have focus so much on that. We’ve crammed people full of knowledge and and have belief that somehow filled with this knowledge, they would be transformative. And we know that that does not happen. And, you know, the evidence is all around us that does not happen.
What we need is wisdom. We need.
Speaker 2
Yeah.
Speaker 3
Good judgment. We need the ability to intuit and understand, not just with our minds, but with our hearts. We need to grasp, that transformation comes to us in all sorts of shapes and sizes and comes to other people in that way, too. You know, one of the amazing things is that Jesus didn’t take people through through a three year curriculum in order to, you know, to turn them into leaders.
Well, actually, he was around for three years, and they were with him for three years. But it wasn’t the, you know, it wasn’t the kind of knowledge base that we are so fond of in the Western world. And there are people who have been leading ever before, leadership and the idea of leadership and the whole theory around leadership was a thing.
There have been people leading for forever, generations in all sorts of set ups who can read and write and who can’t read or write. And who were wise leaders. So we’ve we’re certainly missing something with our whole focus. Let’s cram people full of information. But I hope they do better.
Speaker 2
Okay. Thank you. This. Yeah, I’ve read most of the book. And I remember thinking, I need to take more time. What does this mean for me and my good friend Simon Goddard, who, works for the first expressions team as well as he’s actually sent out a challenge to people. And he, will be running a book club on Fridays, for people to, to discuss what it is if you, you know, Simon and, you, or you want to connect with with that, then you can do you can find Simon on Facebook or through his company, River tree.
But again, what he’s offering is a is an opportunity for people to go deeper and to take more into what it is, and what a difference it might make. So the book itself, is available from, Your, website. Next up, next leadership. Forward slash metamorph. Or you can buy through any good, local bookshops and you are actively encouraging people to do that rather than necessarily to use, some other large multinational organizations.
So if you can buy it through, your local bookshop, then please, it would really encourage you to go and do that. Kate. Thank you.
Speaker 3
Thank you for.
Speaker 2
Your time and for your vulnerability to your wisdom, for sharing with us. In this time, we really appreciate it. The, recording of this will go, up on the FCC’s website, and on YouTube, over a period of time. So, hopefully we’ll be encouraging. We will certainly be pointing people towards it. Okay.
To, yeah. Continue. I think the very real challenge, but also really incredibly insightful challenge that you’ve laid down to so many of us within the church. So thank you for your time today. And, yeah, look forward to continuing the journey. Yeah. Isn’t filled with like, this is an ad. It feels like this is partly a beginning.
Speaker 3
Sounds good to me.
Speaker 2
Really, I like that, yeah. Brilliant. Thanks.