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An introduction to the Podcast with Presenters Mark Robinson & Beth Munn.
Beth is an fx Practitioner with the Salvation Army and she tells mark about her experiences of doing church in different ways and how she and her husband got to where they are at in their ministry.
At The Table Podcast
Faversham Salvation Army
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Transcript (This is automated and may not be fully accurate)
00:00:00:00 – 00:00:19:22
Unknown
So we’re here starting off the first episode of our new podcast for Fresh Expressions, the mission Shaped podcast.
00:00:19:24 – 00:00:49:09
Unknown
I’m Mark Robinson. I, becomes person at Fresh Expressions. Our other host is the lovely Beth one for those who are listening for the first time. And the idea behind this was we realized that stories are that the stuff that bring everyone together, everyone has a story, and it’s stories that help other people who are involved in the fresh expressions, movements, or who are thinking about getting involved, and people who are thinking about starting new Christian communities.
00:00:49:11 – 00:01:10:06
Unknown
Yeah, it’s a bit to be inspired. So that’s the point of this podcast, is to share some of those stories. That’s when you introduce yourself. I read as I’m wiping because it’s the same, but that’s no use to the listeners. hi, I am Beth man. I live in, Kent, so in the southeast coast. Very lovely.
00:01:10:11 – 00:01:42:12
Unknown
And, I serve in a beautiful community called Faversham. which is just shy below Canterbury for more geography, if you’re not aware of southeast geography. and I serve with the Salvation Army. I’ve been a member church. Belong to the church of the, Salvation Army for my whole life. And now I work for them as my title is a pioneer community leader developer.
00:01:42:14 – 00:02:03:00
Unknown
basically, that’s the fresh expression, section of the Salvation Army. So I serve in creating fresh expressions of church in, under the Salvation Army’s banner in all community. So, so I do that with my husband, John. we’re both employed full time. Very blessed that, we’ve been able to give and give that to our community.
00:02:03:00 – 00:02:28:16
Unknown
And, yeah, I’ve been doing that for three years. And then. Yeah, now I’m here. Now part of this podcast. And then joined the Fresh Expression Nation multi this year last year. All the years of blood since I feel like since it’s 2020 nobody knows what year it is. That’s one thing Covid has done is it’s like it’s removed our concept of like dates and time and like I can’t remember if something was yesterday or if it was three months ago.
00:02:28:18 – 00:02:49:23
Unknown
Well, I had this conversation with somebody yesterday that was 2019, but I was like, no, that was this year. And they were like, I promise you, it was 2019 was sort of a before Covid and after Covid and all to that. I know because it’s like but then sometimes that blurs as well. Yeah. Because we had two years down in Bristol and we left just right in the middle of lockdown and moved.
00:02:50:01 – 00:03:09:23
Unknown
And so yeah, that’s the whole thing. Like when did we move? It was in Covid. So that’s the benchmark. But yeah, it’s still it’s still kind of kind of a bit bonkers. I think it’s so it’s worth saying for as we go through this podcast, where, where we’re kind of making it up as we go along, really.
00:03:09:23 – 00:03:29:05
Unknown
We’re just trying to see what one of our we just want to get the stories out. so you’re going to see a lot of me and all the best. and we’ll be having these conversations with, different practitioners. and it might be me interviewing them. It might be best interviewing them. It might be both of us interviewing them.
00:03:29:07 – 00:03:47:05
Unknown
and it might be that we interview people and then do a little bit of, Beth and I have a sort of regroup chat at the end to talk about some of the aspects of the story or highlight some of the bits and pieces, and we will see how we go. We don’t want it to be too tailored, to sophisticated and all that sort of stuff.
00:03:47:07 – 00:04:11:21
Unknown
but yeah. So that’s, that’s the name there. So, Beth, let’s go. let’s crack on with your story, your intent. I know Kent. I spent the first two years I lived in the UK. I lived down in Gillingham, and so not too far from you. not as nice as Faversham. but, Yeah. So I went to I.
00:04:11:22 – 00:04:50:02
Unknown
Yeah, two years in Dillingham and lived in Gillingham. Chatham. I remember those times fondly as a late teenager, coming of age. but, yeah. Tell us, tell us a bit more about your, your community and, how you got involved in it and, and how it started and some of that stuff. Yeah. Okay. so I think my, you know, like, every story, my story starts with just, as a teenager having a calling upon my life, God gave me a calling into ministry.
00:04:50:02 – 00:05:15:24
Unknown
And as a 15 year old, that can sometimes be very confusing and very kind of, oh, what’s this? What’s this? You know, this pole or this toggle, this, you know, thing I feel very pulled towards, but I was very blessed that growing up in the Salvation Army, there was always a very clear understanding and talking and discipleship around, ministering, calling.
00:05:15:24 – 00:05:41:07
Unknown
And when you felt that what that meant and that was very nurtured. So I had some great people that nurtured me through that, through my mid to late teens. And as I went to university, and as I got older, things kind of, life just happened and I had some wise people speaking to me about just, you know, being a bit more experienced in things before I ran into into ministry.
00:05:41:09 – 00:06:03:19
Unknown
So I went to university, got a degree in, religion and theology, and then, during that time, I got engaged to my now husband, and we both. And he also has had a calling into ministry. And in the Salvation Army, couples can go into ministry together to serve as ministers for, a local church or, or expression.
00:06:03:21 – 00:06:26:17
Unknown
And we were just kind of living the life. I was, left university and became a secondary school teacher. and we were really active in our church and just kind of just living life and doing kind of the newly married piece. but my husband John kept kind of sharing that God was really placing this planting and seed analogy in everything he did.
00:06:26:19 – 00:06:42:20
Unknown
Words spoken over him in Scripture, all these things. And I just kept kind of saying, no, no, no, no, we’re not planters. We’re not we’re not seed people. We’re not that we’re, you know, we’re going into ministry training. We’ve got this formula, this is how it is, and that’s how it’s happening. And I was like, that’s not for me.
00:06:42:20 – 00:07:02:14
Unknown
If that’s for you, will follow you. Like, you know, God’s telling you to go or do something. We can do something. And I’ll just continue to be a teacher. I don’t feel that. So we had lots of conversations and just kind of journey through that. And then, and then life back happened. And that was kind of a really big shake up at our church.
00:07:02:16 – 00:07:21:00
Unknown
And it was actually in when I say now, I always say, I think it sounds very dramatic, but it was kind of a traumatic experience for me because church and this particular church, it was where I was born. It was where I was dedicated back to God. It was where I became, you know, gave my life to Jesus.
00:07:21:00 – 00:08:03:02
Unknown
It was where I got married. it was where both sides of my family, worshiped and served. So it really was the epicenter of my world, this church. And when things happen in that, until it until that ground is shaken, you don’t realize how solid that that is for you and how I explain it to people now, having reflected and prayed and had people speak into it, is that it was like for 20, 25, 26 years, I was living in a glass and its glass was so, so shiny and perfect and clear and beautiful and living in that, I was really happy and content, and I could see how I could see in.
00:08:03:07 – 00:08:41:05
Unknown
And everything was shiny and beautiful. And then this thing happened and the glass shattered. and at the time, you think that shattering is the worst thing in the world, and you think you’re everything underneath you is gone. You think you’re, you’re you’re caught. You’re hurt. You think you’re never going to recover from that. But in that God was very, very clear to both John and I that we needed to stay where we were and that we didn’t we shouldn’t leave a church, and we were even more angry and confused by that, because how can we be in a place that is causing us pain?
00:08:41:07 – 00:09:07:03
Unknown
and God gave John an image of Jonah in the whale and told us to ride out the whale. And so we stuck at it and we we prayed and we had some people on the outside really speaking to us, and we went away for a local leaders retreat. and to just explore leadership further. And it’s just really an investment from the Salvation Army into some young leaders.
00:09:07:05 – 00:09:27:10
Unknown
And it was mad at the word pioneering first entered our vocabulary and our minds and, I didn’t I didn’t tell anybody this, but it was, you know, for John, he was, you know, very vocal and being like, yes, this is this is what God has been setting in me all the time. This is what this is what I’m meant to be.
00:09:27:12 – 00:09:50:20
Unknown
And here’s how I know this isn’t for you, Beth. But inside I was I I’m not scared for this. Like all those other words, they filled me with fear and terror. But this, this doesn’t. And I didn’t know why or what that was about. And then would have would I have before. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Why and why would a freak job before.
00:09:50:22 – 00:10:08:21
Unknown
Because I was in a glass I wasn’t. And because nothing could really get into me, I was in this perfect space and nothing could shatter that before. It was a solid glass, before it was perfect and clear, and I knew what. And the glass was round and and, you know, very perfect. And I knew that that’s how it should be.
00:10:08:21 – 00:10:31:23
Unknown
I knew that’s how it was always going to be. but that shattering made me realize what church actually is and that I wasn’t actually me being in that wasn’t actually faith. It was. It was my form of faith and understanding. It was my form of church and it that shattering. And when I explain to people now, I explain that it was the most beautiful, shattering that could have ever happened to my life.
00:10:31:23 – 00:11:03:18
Unknown
It was like God finally opened my eyes to the reality of what? To aspects of God that I didn’t know. Two aspects of my faith I didn’t know, two aspects of church I didn’t know. And I think when I when I have conversations with people who have grown up in church and it’s not not just, you know, the formula for those who grew up in church, but I think more so in my experience, it’s where those happened, you know, and I hear them saying these things and I just think, oh, you’re in the glass, you’re in the glass.
00:11:03:18 – 00:11:24:11
Unknown
And I just want to I just want to shatter it for you because I just want you to taste and experience the breadth and depth of of God and that, and it’s that’s not to diminish, you know, my experience growing up in church and, you know, and no and no church is perfect. And I think that is also the key thing there in that I thought my church was perfect.
00:11:24:11 – 00:11:42:12
Unknown
I thought the people in there were perfect with me. And that does come with being a child and being, you know, accepting Jesus so young. And I think it’s all very nice and shiny and new. And as you grow up and you get a taste, the real world and life happens for you and you, you have to do adult things.
00:11:42:14 – 00:12:10:09
Unknown
You realize that people are Christians to, sinners. And we think stakes and we fall and, and I’m included in that. And it’s probably I think it’s worth saying as well because, well, obviously a very land experience is very different, but that idea of sort of the sort of the bubble and this sort of perfect life because everyone, everyone goes to, aims to create a life for themselves.
00:12:10:11 – 00:12:32:20
Unknown
and as Christians, we try and create, a life that hopefully involves our walk with Jesus. but I know certainly for for Reese and I in our, in our previous church, before we started training, for ordination and it was life was good. We had our wonderful community. And as you’re talking about this glass, you know, that resonates almost.
00:12:32:20 – 00:12:56:15
Unknown
I was so guilty thinking about it because it was nothing like, oh, yes, life is really great. And then once you’re once you’re pulled out or it’s shattered. And for us, it wasn’t necessarily at an event of, of, of big events, shattering our view or anything. It was the call for ordination and finally being pulled out of that and then looking back and not to say that our former church was was bad or anything, but certainly wasn’t, wasn’t perfect.
00:12:56:17 – 00:13:20:14
Unknown
And and then like I think many what Covid has done to a lot of churches has sort of shone a light on the fact that a lot of it, a lot of churches, a lot of communities aren’t necessarily as perfect as everyone thought they were. And so people are really trying to figure this out. And, and in some ways, being catalyzed to look and see, is there something more maybe 100%.
00:13:20:14 – 00:13:46:20
Unknown
And I think, it’s so important for us to it to recognize that, you know, everyone in their journey with church and God is growing and that, you know, even right back to the early disciples, they had, you know, this very kind of torture. You know, you had some that thinking that their right way was the right way and that it’s all of this.
00:13:46:20 – 00:14:22:02
Unknown
And I think not only has this, this shattering opened my eyes to kind of my personal church life and faith, but also to, to to the wider, you know, body of Christ. And one of the best things is come out of that shattering, you know, and then in turn, pioneering and fresh expressions. It’s just connecting to the wider body and not being so insular and realizing that, you know, my story has happened to other people, you know, is is similar there or, you know, there were similar stories like yours that are slightly different.
00:14:22:02 – 00:15:02:01
Unknown
But, you know, there’s it can still be attached to the same. And I think the reasons why, you know, stories while this, you know, while this podcast is, is happening is so that we can hear those and that we can connect to, you know, listening to those and just learning from them. One of the things that somebody incredibly wise said to me, during this difficult during the difficult period was just to not let to not let this not let this story, this part of the chapter of my story changed the story of Jesus in my life.
00:15:02:03 – 00:15:38:23
Unknown
And, I guess when, when we were when we explained to people that it was a shattering, we kept people thinking, oh, that must been terrible for your faith. And I say, actually, no, because at that point my faith had was the strongest it had ever been because the only people, all I could rely on was Jesus. My faith was probably at its absolute strongest because I wasn’t wasn’t relying on Sunday messages or, you know, 30, you know, 40 minutes in a, you know, in a church service or, or a choir practice all day so that I wasn’t relying upon the other things.
00:15:38:23 – 00:15:59:01
Unknown
All I was relying on during my faith at that time to get me through was Jesus. Because what was clear to me about what I needed to do and where we needed to stay, and I every day when we were, you know, some days or when we had to enter into that, that tough space, we just had to completely pull on every strength we could from Jesus.
00:15:59:03 – 00:16:18:05
Unknown
And so the shattering wasn’t bad of my faith. It was the blessing. It was the the biggest and most beautiful gift I could have ever received. Because it allowed me to go to places that I didn’t know I needed and realize I could, could hold on to to Jesus. But things that I really didn’t think I needed to.
00:16:18:05 – 00:16:38:22
Unknown
I thought Jesus came with church, you know that, oh, I was going to church, so it’s going to be there, not that I know in the second hour. Wake up. I need to him and it it creates, you know. Yeah, yeah. I’m reminded of the when, when we went through some, some big stuff, a number of years ago ourselves.
00:16:38:24 – 00:17:06:01
Unknown
that was devastating to us, to reach my, because those it’s both are our journeys. We grew up Catholic. and then we both spent quite a period of time just sort of having no faith. And then we came back to faith. and when we went through that stuff, it was because we’d spent quite a period of time.
00:17:06:01 – 00:17:31:11
Unknown
I’d spent ten years of time of with health, having no faith. And I knew what it was like. And part of my reason of coming back to faith was because it wasn’t fun not having Jesus alongside me. I remember during that time my sister going through some stuff as well. and I remember sort of almost condescendingly saying, oh, it’s nice to have their faith.
00:17:31:11 – 00:17:53:03
Unknown
It’s a nice crutch to lean on and thinking like I was almost superior, not needing this. And of course, us having gone through some like, really, really difficult things. Of course it’s of course our faith is a crutch. Of course, leaning on God as was the only way we got behind that stuff. And when we went through that, the choice was, okay.
00:17:53:03 – 00:18:16:02
Unknown
Either I just abandon my faith or I push into God. I’d already abandoned my faith and that wasn’t that wasn’t an option. The only thing I could do was full lean in to Christ, fully lean into God, and be administered by the spirit. You know. And I can’t. I just can’t imagine. I realize for some that’s that’s my may not be as as easy.
00:18:16:04 – 00:18:58:08
Unknown
and some people, depending on the story, is that that’s sometimes harder. But yeah, for me and, and for, for reason I yeah, certainly a thing of just the need to rely on God’s was was way stronger than ever. And and then it’s and really from that you know it’s hard to deny that because we were so we’d leant so far into God that actually that’s how and why, you know for us we believe that our eyes and our hearts were opened for this community and that because we, you know, we weren’t being prescribed steam to program and to or to people or to things because we just solely relied on, on God.
00:18:58:08 – 00:19:26:20
Unknown
And we just had kind of this complete surrender because we we really had no other choice. We didn’t know what else to do. It was you that as you and you know, as you said, or leave and go. And believe me, we toyed with that many times and we, you know, even got we even explored other churches. We, we really we really tried to just step into and find where, where God was, was wanting us to land and hold our feet.
00:19:26:22 – 00:19:49:01
Unknown
And that did none of that, you know, nothing ever made sense. And something that I was grabbing and stepping into was just discernment. And I’d had a few words spoken over me about, you know, about the gift of discernment and holding on to that. And, and so many things had happened where I’d had those incredibly strong, many feelings, sorry.
00:19:49:03 – 00:20:10:05
Unknown
And kind of the Holy Spirit had really kind of lean into that, that I was beginning to, to realize, you know, okay, no, this isn’t right. It when it doesn’t feel right, you know, we’re going to know straight away. And, most of the times that happened. But when we walked into Faversham, it wasn’t because we were going to explore a chat.
00:20:10:05 – 00:20:41:13
Unknown
We were just had some friends down for the day. And, these friends of ours, a beautiful couple that we had known for a very long time, they’re the same age as us. and he is now a minister in the Salvation Army. he was he was going through the process then at that time. And they’re the type of friends that, you know, the, the I call the met and the blessed friends, you know, in your life those that you will sit and cry with you when you are in grief, those will you will laugh until you cry at the stupidest things.
00:20:41:13 – 00:21:00:10
Unknown
Who will drive down from the middle of the country when there’s issues, those types of friends that that’s who they are? Yeah. I mean, and everyone needs those. If you’re if you’re doing sort of any sort of ministry, I think you need that. Those sets of friends. Reece, I’ve been talking again about this, you know, because we’re very early.
00:21:00:10 – 00:21:22:14
Unknown
Ruth is serving accuracy at the moment, so we’re very early into it. But I love the conversations go around the, the, the shift in sort of the power dynamic, of like when you are if you, if you are ministering to people, or you are the, the if you’re the, the vicar or the pastor or the minister or or what have you, there is a shift in dynamic between the relationships.
00:21:22:14 – 00:21:46:21
Unknown
So you have to rely on those friendships from before now because yeah, it just shifts up and and so yeah, we’re trying to lean into and learn that the whole thing about those friends, I love that the the message, the blessed friends for a bit and you know, and when and I think when you do them, hold on to them tight and lean into those and, you know, for all things and we’re very blessed that we’ve got, you know, a few of those and we’re, you know, regaining those.
00:21:46:23 – 00:22:03:09
Unknown
And you’re right, they need to be removed from kind of your ministry and where you are because, you know, you need them to be able to not take so much of you, you know, because when you’re ministering there means that that you give a lot and it doesn’t always come back. and it’s not appropriate to come back as well.
00:22:03:09 – 00:22:28:19
Unknown
You know, you’re there to minister and serve. So definitely. And and this is the example of them blessing, you know, we were just there and we were sharing sharing with them the night before. And then in the car journey that we had been to this leadership weekend, in that we had explored, you know, this fresh expression. And, and John had said to me when we came home for the leadership weekend, he was at what happened to the Salvation Army in Faversham.
00:22:28:19 – 00:22:44:08
Unknown
Did you do you know, and I said, oh, I just know that it was there and that it closed it. I don’t think there was anything big. I think the numbers just dwindled. It was like ten, which is two minutes down the road, really. and I said, why? And he said, oh, I’ve just been thinking about it.
00:22:44:10 – 00:23:01:21
Unknown
And then we were there that day and, it was a really busy summer’s day. It was market day. And, we were right in the center. So the town center, a we try to explain to people who haven’t been, it’s almost like a Y. See, you’ve got kind of the two top ends that go up and then the body down the middle.
00:23:01:23 – 00:23:19:10
Unknown
And we were standing kind of in the center, where you could either go to the to the left or right to the top end, or you could go down. And we were standing there and my friend James, he said, I feel like we need to prayer walk the prayer like, yeah, sure. And he said, hold on to this, though.
00:23:19:16 – 00:23:46:06
Unknown
And he ran into a shop and got a Sharpie and he said, let’s write on the bottom of our shoes what we want for this community or what we feel God is saying is needed in this community. And, so we each wrote our own words, on the sounds of our shoes, but leaning against Morrisons supermarket, writing that these people will get past most of the what are these other people doing?
00:23:46:08 – 00:24:14:12
Unknown
we wrote these words. We walked around, for probably two hours just not talking, talking, praying all the things. And then we get back to the center of the town, right in that, that center spot. And the three of them are standing there, and I just begin to walk, and I just walk straight down the middle of step, the body of the kind of the main why we call it the town center, the market street.
00:24:14:14 – 00:24:35:00
Unknown
And we walk down there. The cobbled started on hot summer’s day days, absolutely packed. There’s people bustling around and, you know, I’m sure people, you know, you can imagine it. The noises, the market stalls yelling, the people talking, children crying got all the sounds. But I lost my hearing. I couldn’t hear a single thing. As I was walking through that, but I.
00:24:35:02 – 00:25:09:22
Unknown
I don’t remember a sense of fear. I just kept walking. I just was kind of going. It was like completely taken over by the by the Holy Spirit. I was just and I got to the end of the road and I turned around and I looked back up at there at the market again, still not hearing anything. And as I looked there, I had one of the very few times I’ve audibly had what I believed to be the voice of God say to me, there are people here who aren’t listening, and I am here and people aren’t listening.
00:25:09:24 – 00:25:39:11
Unknown
And that instant my sound came back and it was like, that was like in a movie. You know, when they do that, when they take the slot and Michael, what she was honestly does, it felt like a and I was like, am I just kind of watch this? All these people were moving around. And you know, in that instance when you when you’ve been given a, you know, a heart for a community in that second, I was seeing these faces and my heart was just breaking for these people that weren’t listening and couldn’t hear God in their lives.
00:25:39:13 – 00:25:57:23
Unknown
And I could see my friends and, and my husband right at the back of the, of the street. And I just began to walk back to them. And as we continue to walk for probably another two hours, it felt like every step I was doing was just so heavy, like my feet were being pulled into the ground.
00:25:57:23 – 00:26:15:05
Unknown
It was like was that I’d never felt before, and I didn’t share any of this with them. I had this sense that I just needed to just kind of keep this and hold this. And we we got back and we talked about how much we loved it and how fun it was and how the market store is amazing.
00:26:15:05 – 00:26:32:06
Unknown
And it’s and, you know, the sentiment was, it’s such a shame the Army’s in here because what a presence it could have to share that, you know, to share and to serve in this community. And, and these things. And a couple of weeks went by and we just were talking and we went to visit our friends at one of our new churches.
00:26:32:06 – 00:26:52:14
Unknown
And, we were sitting there and all I could think about was as the service was going and as the message was being preached, was all I could think about was this image of what I saw and and had and and God’s picturing him to me. And so we got home and I and I asked to FaceTime our friends.
00:26:52:16 – 00:27:19:00
Unknown
it wasn’t unusual. They didn’t think we faced on them quite a lot because I didn’t live particularly close, and I shared with them what had happened. And they don’t like what. And I was like, please pray. Like, what does this mean? We need to discern. And, and that as, as they all that time of people, they sat and prayed with us and we talked and and they were like, we think you’ve got to you’ve got to tell someone in the Army, you know, you’ve got to start reaching out to leadership and share a dream.
00:27:19:02 – 00:27:44:12
Unknown
So we did that. And really from then it it almost feels like an absolute tornado in the best way possible, because we shared this vision and, John and had a passage of Scripture come to him, that day about, it’s Isaiah. I would say 61, I would say 64 by 61. I think it’s, we’re building on the old foundations and I’ll make something I know.
00:27:44:12 – 00:28:06:17
Unknown
And obviously the Salvation Army had gone. And so. Yeah, but the foundations of the work and the ministry was still there, but now is the time to rebuild on that, you know, make something new and, and yeah. So that was kind of that chapter. And then it was about leaving jobs and. Yeah. And starting that and and now I’m.
00:28:06:17 – 00:28:41:04
Unknown
Yeah, it’s crazy to think it’s very odd when you sit back and you reflect on that story because it that’s an amazing story that that’s also like, wow, anytime I hear Holy Spirit stories, I always get like like chronic goosebumps all over my arms. It’s just like it’s killing Day and everywhere. It’s just like, it’s so good and yeah, I think it’s that that reminder of just, I think of, like, the all powerful God where he doesn’t, he doesn’t need us to do this stuff.
00:28:41:04 – 00:29:05:19
Unknown
He’s he’s the almighty. But because he built us to be in relationship with him, he wants us to join in with him. Yeah. And and to do some of the stuff with him, and use our hands or our feet or our voices. Spam. Yeah. And I get tremendously excited by it. So hearing that. But stories like this where it’s just like people listening and hearing and then doing so.
00:29:05:21 – 00:29:25:23
Unknown
Which brings us on, I guess, to so when, when it’s when this, sort of, this all sort of happen and it’s like, when did you guys like, like start or sort of open the doors, as it were, for the first time? so, so that, so that, moment with a heady spirit. So the walking, I call it the walking moment.
00:29:25:23 – 00:29:53:19
Unknown
What was 2018? Summer 2018? after that, we had some pretty traumatic family experiences. My mother in law was incredibly sick. almost died. my husband John was in and really serious car accident and again, could have been life threatening and just life really like, you know, when you when people say like, spiritual warfare isn’t a thing, I’m like, oh, and it wasn’t, but it’s a minor.
00:29:53:21 – 00:30:19:17
Unknown
I’ve had some moments, you know, you’ve had this incredible body spirit moment and then it’s like, boom, boom. But in in all of that we were still really like, no, this is why God calls us. and we spoke to the army and the process began about speaking to, leadership. And we had an infamous, as we like to say, chat with Andrew Ratigan, who is, known in the fresh expression community pioneering.
00:30:19:19 – 00:30:44:01
Unknown
And so Andrew and Andrew about, again, the territorial leaders for fresh expressions and pioneering in the Salvation Army. We had never met Andrew prior to this meeting. We sat outside a Wetherspoons on a summer’s day and chatted for ages and, yeah, just when when you have all these dreams and visions and you don’t know where they are, you kind of don’t know what to do with them.
00:30:44:03 – 00:31:10:05
Unknown
and someone comes and almost affirms those things in you. It’s such a relief. Like we we sat down at that meeting waiting for Andrew, bottled up and pent up and are we going to be judged and are we going to be laughed at and all these things, are we crazy? Are we going to be told that there’s no way that that’s possible to have someone sit and listen and affirm and just speak and breathe Holy Spirit life into you and just say God affirms all these things.
00:31:10:05 – 00:31:27:07
Unknown
This is and it’s like you saying, you know, about, you know, joining in and we have somebody say to us, you know, oh, yeah, we need you back because God isn’t there. And I remember saying to Andrew, that made me really angry because God is like, God doesn’t even leave a space. That’s not true. Like God is everywhere.
00:31:27:09 – 00:31:50:10
Unknown
It’s just whether we joining in and whether we’re taking part in Matt and Matt come back and take part in different things. And the beautiful thing about church and fresh expressions is that God allows us to join in. And the different expressions that that form, whether it be the Salvation Army or, you know, Messy church or C of E or eco church or whatever it is, it’s all different aspects of God saying, this is you part of joining in my mission.
00:31:50:10 – 00:32:12:15
Unknown
This is my church. And how how you join in is different because that’s like with life, you know, we do life differently, all of us. So doing mission is going to be the same team. So Andrew breathing that into and kind of allowing us to be released was was was amazing for us. And we had to go through the process of being assessed and, you know, affirmed in the Salvation Army’s leaders.
00:32:12:15 – 00:32:33:03
Unknown
So there was, you know, quite rightly, they have to test whether this is a boss or of God. and we have to fill in paperwork and documents. And I really wasn’t going to do it as a full time job. I was going to do it by vocationally, and John was going to do it full time. I was very happy and content with that, but that was what was called to do.
00:32:33:03 – 00:32:56:04
Unknown
I was very happy in my job. I loved teaching, and then just lots of things started happen at school, just change of management and leadership and just little things. And I explained to people like me deciding, you know, or feeling called to go full time wasn’t like a big follow moment. It was almost like, just turn the page really beautiful.
00:32:56:04 – 00:33:14:07
Unknown
And it was like, I woke up one day and it was like I was on the next page, like, wow, okay, so I find our boss and I, you know, I said, this is what I want to do. And beautifully and amazing me. You know, the opportunity was available for both of us to go full time, which was just the biggest blessing.
00:33:14:08 – 00:33:42:07
Unknown
Amazing. And so that was 20. That was early 2019. and because of being in teaching, I didn’t want to leave mid-year. So I was going to stay on to the end of the academic year in August. But John, my husband, was started almost immediately. So he started, officially the 1st of April 2019. and he just began networking, building relationships.
00:33:42:09 – 00:34:07:12
Unknown
We started going to the different churches, meeting the, you know, the local leaders. we just kind of started walking around going to places events were on. We’d be there. he was just sitting in cafes getting to know people, making, you know, making. His face appeared. He walked a lot. He loves to walk. So he would walk around and talk to people.
00:34:07:14 – 00:34:37:19
Unknown
and then I joined in September. and it was like, right. You know, like, this is real now. Like, we’re both here. We’re both there. There was September 2019. we’re kind of we have no building. we are just kind of being very kind of in the community, just walking around, getting to know people. a few organizations reached out to us, wanting us to kind of join in with them or start something.
00:34:37:19 – 00:35:00:15
Unknown
And we really just kind of settled with, we’re just taking this year to listen. but one thing that we felt really passionate about was the market store. That was where God, you know, that’s where really all, you know, it was all started. That was kind of the genesis of it all for us. So we decided to contact the market stall and see if we could have a market, store open on the market days.
00:35:00:17 – 00:35:27:13
Unknown
And they said, yes, amazing. Me. And we had this beautiful little spot. and so we pitched up a salvation Army gazebo with a table. We had some Bible, some like life words, literature. I think someone had found just the old Salvation Army. Faversham flag. So we had that for some reason. and we just stood there with hot drinks and just spoke to the community.
00:35:27:13 – 00:35:44:24
Unknown
For the first couple of weeks. We just walked. As they walk past, we’d smile or say hello and see. They’d come in and some people would see the the logo and come to us and we just chatted, and then we did a questionnaire and we just asked the community questions about church, about the army, about God, about need in the community.
00:35:45:01 – 00:36:01:17
Unknown
Just to kind of get a lay of the land. became one of those annoying people with a clipboard that people always avoid and put their heads down and walk away from and and don’t never will do that again, because that’s just one of the worst. And people are like, what’s the worst thing you’ve done? That is the worst thing.
00:36:01:19 – 00:36:19:07
Unknown
I’m one of those people that will avoid talking to them. So to have to do that was that was where I had to pull on everything in me. And so we just began. That’s really kind of the when our doors opened to the community was that that market still day? we tried different things. We had hot we we made donuts.
00:36:19:09 – 00:36:49:02
Unknown
We did like a chocolate treat. We did a Christmas stall. Well, we had like a photo booth of like, like a nativity scene and like, children could hold nativity masks and take pictures. We really did like. And what was the what was some of the, the, the kind of, I don’t want to say the plan or as such, but so just stepping back a bit to sort of say you sort of you’ve met with Andrew Baskin and he’s gone.
00:36:49:02 – 00:37:08:07
Unknown
It’s gone like, yeah, okay, we’re behind you, let’s go. Let’s do this. What was sort of the did you have like an end goal in mind, or was it just a thing of we just want to serve these people and see what happens? Or did you did ideas form to what it is now or what? Tell us a bit about that.
00:37:08:07 – 00:37:33:23
Unknown
That, is probably a massive a little bit of a tale really. I’m, I’m a planner and an organizer, and so I needed a plan. I need to do kind of a what are we working towards? Husband John is the complete opposite. So he was like, we’re just going to be in and serve and do and whatever pops up, wherever we’re called to whatever God speaks to us, if we’re asked to do something, we’ll do it.
00:37:33:23 – 00:37:55:01
Unknown
And I’m like, I, I need a plan. I kind of go from structured teaching day to day life to just being and doing. so we kind of just came up with a new idea with the leadership of the Salvation Army, that the idea was to create a church worshiping community. That was the end goal that I kind of had.
00:37:55:01 – 00:38:19:18
Unknown
No, no, that’s very it sounds generic, but obviously that is powerful. That is community. But, that was kind of our goal was to create a worshiping, serving, disciple and community, church and how that looked kind of shifted. The market stall was really kind of be the center of that. That was going to be how we were going to begin that.
00:38:19:20 – 00:38:39:24
Unknown
And then it was really just going to be from that about listening, which was so difficult for me, not just letting go and not having a meeting, having a plan and not and it goes back to having what we said, you know, we spoke about briefly earlier was about a it not being about you and your, your agenda.
00:38:40:05 – 00:39:02:09
Unknown
And I think coming out of that glass previous day, so much of that was a, you know, was on my agenda or other people’s agenda and not what God wanted. And so relinquishing my desire and need to control and need to do things that I felt right was actually really important, an important lesson for God to teach me.
00:39:02:09 – 00:39:35:08
Unknown
You know, when you know, when we want to grow, God doesn’t magically just give us like strength and power. God gives us opportunities to be patient or to be strong. So, that’s what happened. And I’m thankful for that because the freedom that that gives you to just be, to listen and and to not be prescribed to to what the Salvation Army wants or to an agenda, but to what God is saying to you in the community to actually have the ability to look and say and say, this is what God is.
00:39:35:14 – 00:39:55:09
Unknown
This is what God is breaking now, where God’s heart breaking. This is where community is crying out for needle. This is this is a space there. so really kind of a combination of a lot of things. I would say, a lot of teaching in that, a lot of learning for me. Definitely. And cool. Because it’s it’s tough.
00:39:55:14 – 00:39:58:00
Unknown
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:58:00 – 00:40:15:24
Unknown
How how is it going now? And and what does it look like now? Because I realize with, with all of these things, with any sort of form of, a fresh expression or church or community, what it starts out as doesn’t always look like what it is now or what it ends up being.
00:40:16:01 – 00:40:34:07
Unknown
so yeah, tell us in a few minutes. Tell us what about how it’s going. What does it look like now? One of the biggest challenges being all that sort of stuff. Yeah. Okay. I think you just pretty much summed it up for me actually, because how it’s how it’s going is not how it started and or what we thought it looked like at all.
00:40:34:09 – 00:40:58:08
Unknown
And I think that’s a lot of that completely down to just reliance upon God 100%, and just leaning into that and not removing yourself from that and not placing your own agenda, as I just said. so now we are three years in, obviously we started in 2019, so I had three months before we went into pretty much two years of lockdown.
00:40:58:10 – 00:41:27:09
Unknown
and to go from that is to say that’s a challenge is an understatement, because how do you serve a community when you can’t be out in the community? When you step by zoom? but one thing that goes, John, with me particularly is a hunger and a desire for the online. So a huge portion of who we are now that has come through, and completely ignited through Covid, you know, even though that was a challenge for us, was digital online ministry.
00:41:27:11 – 00:41:48:00
Unknown
It’s his passion. It’s his street corner is open air. It’s where he loves to shout and and to. So we held a huge online presence. we run a podcast called At the Table, which, we did three seasons with, the team that we had at the beginning of the, the journey, and they’re no longer with us.
00:41:48:02 – 00:42:07:14
Unknown
So now we currently just run it with John and I. we just relaunched it recently, so that’s a huge blessing. social media is a huge platform John’s really passionate about. It’s online. Should be your street corner. So that we should be there to shedding light. You know, social media is a dark place and can be lead to dark things.
00:42:07:16 – 00:42:26:00
Unknown
So why do Christians hide from it? We should be bringing their light into it. We should be sharing the gospel. That’s where it should be. Absolutely. Yeah, that’s that’s kind of a huge aspect of where we are and then community aspect. We’re heavily involved in partnership. One of the things I believe is key in anything is finding people to work with and partner with.
00:42:26:01 – 00:42:46:06
Unknown
You know, we join in with God. So why don’t we join in with each other without duplicating thing? It’s just ridiculous. If it’s there in the community, you don’t need to be replicating it for the most part. Normally, just join in with it, join it. Let’s work together and share with each other. So we partner with local food banks and mental health organizations to support people in our community.
00:42:46:08 – 00:43:21:04
Unknown
We run, a community wardrobe which is a school uniform and winter essentials swap shop. So I mean, essentially it’s cool. God, combined with my, you know, the knowledge from being in education, people coming to us saying, talking about the hardships, the cost of school uniform, even prior to, you know, today and the cost of living. I decided that to do some research and over 50 million pounds of school uniform goes to waste every year in bins, and that’s just not acceptable.
00:43:21:04 – 00:43:41:12
Unknown
And we’re like, how can we be a part of this? So we ask people in the community of Faversham to bring their pre-loved uniform. We store it. People come and collect it and take it home and it’s used and it’s very near end. simple. It’s got a different formula. reduces waste. connects people with each other.
00:43:41:12 – 00:44:00:14
Unknown
People have become friends through doing this, which is just, like, amazing because they were like, oh, my sons going to this, going, oh, my son’s going to this school. And then they come back as friends. And that’s just beautiful. So like, all these things create such a little beautiful little community in their own. the community of Faversham is very passionate about sustainability and the environment.
00:44:00:20 – 00:44:27:02
Unknown
So, and that’s one of the things we heard very early on. So a huge part of who we are is about being sustainable, and about living, in that, in that sphere. and then where do you find us right now? Is that this kind of really incredible kind of almost stepping stone? So we are about to, in the process of leasing a property, to right in the town center.
00:44:27:02 – 00:44:58:23
Unknown
So where I shared that story right at the beginning, that walk right at the end, that walk where I returned and could see the whole of the market stall. At the end of that was Barclays Bank, which Barclays is no longer holding there. And we are in the process of beginning to starting to lease that property to hold as, a space for our community wardrobe for, digital Bible study, for our podcast, for, Wellbeing cafe that we will launch when we open there.
00:44:59:04 – 00:45:19:20
Unknown
So we are at this incredible space because we’re about to step into a really new, new kind of part of our journey, really, with this building, very nervous, very daunted. It’s going to be a challenge. I think the challenges we’ve had, you know, Covid has been one we’ve been a very small team. but two of us, it’s very difficult to do everything.
00:45:19:20 – 00:45:38:08
Unknown
The two of us, our house is essentially our church. Our garage is not our garage. It’s our storeroom for all things church, working and being working with your husband. You know, it’s a beautiful challenge because you have to learn how people work together. Yeah. Minister together. And, you know, we came from very different jobs. He was in sales.
00:45:38:08 – 00:46:08:15
Unknown
I was in teaching. We’re very different people. We work very differently. So just a challenge and not in a negative way. Just a challenge of learning to work and minister together. And. Sure. Yeah. Relying on each other’s strengths and and doing that. So those are kind of led us to where we are now. And I think where we are right now, our biggest challenge going forward is how do we continue to to be like we were, you know, being out in the community, sitting in cafes, prayer, walking, being that kind of nomadic, that was our DNA.
00:46:08:15 – 00:46:30:04
Unknown
How do we not lose that as we move into a building and have we continue to be out and serve and not become insular and not become part of that glass bowl community now? So that’s really kind of where we are is well, let me then ask you this first, because this is one where we’re coming to the end of our time.
00:46:30:06 – 00:46:49:05
Unknown
but the the two key questions are, so we’ve got a couple of minutes for these. What are your hopes for the future, and what would you say to others who might be starting out?
00:46:49:07 – 00:47:12:24
Unknown
My hope for the future is that we don’t lose what God called us to. A map. 2018 Summer’s Day. We don’t stop listening to God, and we don’t. We don’t become a barrier to people listening to God. That’s my hope that we continue and that we provide those opportunities for people to hear God’s in their lives and see God in their lives.
00:47:13:05 – 00:47:38:07
Unknown
That’s my hope. But it’s our community that we love and serve. And my advice, Luke, can you say in a few minutes, well, if there was, let’s limit to to three pieces of advice. There you go. Okay. That’s fine, I could I could see you. Yeah. I think the first thing that immediately comes to mind as soon as she said it, I know, is find
00:47:38:07 – 00:47:43:12
Unknown
a find your people, find your pillars, assure the mess and the blessed friends.
00:47:43:14 – 00:48:11:19
Unknown
Yeah. I mentioned about your blessings and your message. Friends. But me. But when I and I am and they are, they are one former pillars. You know your friends that you can vent to, you can go to, but find your pillars in your community as well. They are going to be key people who are just have been there, have lived there all their lives, who know everybody who see the way of the land, live the way of the land, know the way of the land, are and and really find those people
00:48:11:19 – 00:48:14:13
Unknown
because they are going to be they’re going to unlock some people.
00:48:14:13 – 00:48:40:22
Unknown
They’re going to unlock some doors for you that you didn’t realize. That’s my first piece of advice. Find your pillars. A second piece of advice would be to not rush into doing play, like if I can stress anything is please, please don’t feel the pressure to need to have an event or to do things. You can just be be with the community, sit and have coffee with coffee with them.
00:48:40:22 – 00:49:01:18
Unknown
Walk. If you’ve got a dog, take them you know. Go to the dog park. If you have children, take them to the park. But that is ministry that is doing things. We can be with people that is still that is still ministry in church building relationships. Right? Yeah. That is the center of things. They are going to be how you get, you know, that is where Jesus is going to be seen in those relationships.
00:49:01:18 – 00:49:44:13
Unknown
When you become those blesses and messages friends for those people, when you become to serve those people. So definitely don’t feel the pressure to do and just be. And the third piece of advice would be, and I need this is preaching to the to myself in this is give yourself grace in all of this because it it’s hard the pressure to to do and the pressure to be something and from and it’s really is a friend of mine said something really great the other day about Mystic David and he he called it and he’s like, you hear all these things, all of you should be doing this, or you should be doing that.
00:49:44:13 – 00:49:57:21
Unknown
And when you say, well, King says that, you know, can I can they tell that to me? And it’s like, oh, well, I don’t actually know who said that. So it’s like we always have this person or, you know, they’re going to say something if we don’t do this or they’re going to tell us off, who is that?
00:49:57:21 – 00:50:28:08
Unknown
You know, so Mystic Dave, you know, not allowing myself to have the grace to mess up and to realize that life and church and ministry is shattered, is messy, to continue to walk on that broken glass. But no. But in that shattered mess, healed and transformed by the saving grace of Jesus Christ and that ultimately that’s all that matters is, you know, is allowing God to continue to transform my life, knowing that the grace that is given to me, my God, is a gift to me that I can then just share with my community.
00:50:28:10 – 00:50:46:16
Unknown
Hold on to that cherished. I allow myself to sit in that grace, have a rest every now and then, and smile because people will see it every day. Because you’re, as I was reminded yesterday from somebody said to me, I’m very old lady in the community, you’re the only Jesus that some people say, and it’s so true, cheesy, but so true.
00:50:46:18 – 00:51:05:23
Unknown
I am, I am. That’s that’s my three piece of advice. But then just. Okay, well, this has been brilliant. You have been fantastic. I am excited for the rest of this podcast. I’m excited for the, the, the other conversations that we’re going to have with people. and yeah, thank you for being willing to be part of this.
00:51:05:23 – 00:51:27:17
Unknown
Pat, thank you for sharing your story. and, yes, we will we will chat again on the next one. But until that day, bless you. I’m going to encourage people to pray for you in the challenges and and to know that you’ve been being prayed for. but yeah, until the next one. We’ll speak again soon. Bye, everyone.
00:51:27:23 – 00:51:33:08
Unknown
Yeah, I.
00:51:33:10 – 00:52:12:20
Unknown
This episode of the podcast featured my co-host Beth Munn. Beth is part of the Faversham Salvation Army, and you can find them online at Faversham Support UK. On that website, you’ll find the social channels and you’ll also find details of their podcast. The At the Table podcast. You can find more details about the Mission Shaped podcast at the Mission Show podcast.com, which will bring you onto the Fresh Expressions website, where you can find more episodes, our social channels, and all the different ways in which you can engage with us, ask us questions, send us emails, send us tweets, all that good stuff.
00:52:12:22 – 00:52:35:05
Unknown
Thanks for listening.