Ep 002 [Stories] Peter Laws

Stories

00:00 / 59:00

Peter Laws is an author and Podcast presenter. In this episode, we unpack how leading an online community works and how a light touch in a community with diverse world-views is key.

He writes and presents The Creepy Cove Community podcast which is described as:

Presented in the style of a church service, this immersive, horror-themed podcast shares spiritual insights, comedy and strange church music direct from Creepy Cove, a mysterious, haunted fishing town by the sea…where every horror movie happened for real.

We wrote a blogpost about Peter a while back – check it out here.

00:00:07:17 – 00:00:24:11
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Mission Shape podcast. I’ll be joining Beth later for a conversation about our guest, who this week is Peter in Laws from the Creepy Cove Community Church.

00:00:24:13 – 00:00:25:09
Speaker 2
And little.

00:00:25:11 – 00:00:27:10
Speaker 1
Hi, how’s your morning going?

00:00:27:12 – 00:00:29:17
Speaker 2
Good. Thank you. How are you this morning? Good morning. Ted.

00:00:29:22 – 00:00:32:17
Speaker 1
Yeah, I’m all right. Got a cup of tea. So that’s good.

00:00:32:19 – 00:00:48:18
Speaker 2
It’s great to be with you this morning. And welcome to our listeners, which is going to be hearing about your story and your community and how that’s shaped. Right. So, first of all, tell us a bit about you, who you are. And then we’ll lead in to, you know, the rest of their kind of story.

00:00:48:24 – 00:01:25:24
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, very brief kind of rundown is, I’m called Peter. Lois, and, I grew up very anti church and anti religion, very anti Christianity specifically. But then, I found that unusually and perhaps controversially, horror films were the only thing that made me start to consider religion. And so in my early 20s, based on my interest in horror films, but also my interest in spooky subjects like the paranormal and UFOs and Bigfoot and all that strange stuff, ironically, it was those things that persuaded me, maybe there’s something to this Christianity stuff.

00:01:25:24 – 00:01:47:15
Speaker 1
So I ended up becoming a Christian in my early 20s, and then became a youth pastor for six years, then, a pastor pastor for six years. And then after that, this was about 12 years ago. I, I stepped away from doing that because I was finding opportunities to write books and, and speak, a bit more often.

00:01:47:15 – 00:02:11:12
Speaker 1
And so, since about 2017, over, I’ve had four, so, four crime fiction, stroke supernatural novels published and also a nonfiction book, which explains why were drawn to the morbid and macabre and why it’s not necessarily, a doorway to danger. It might actually be a way to find enlightenment. Yeah.

00:02:11:14 – 00:02:33:13
Speaker 2
I love that. And when you when these kind of, you know, your journey began in exploring faith in Christianity and Jesus. Yeah. Did were your, were your hobbies and your passions, particularly around the horror. Did you find that? But there was a community that was kind of pushing that out, or did you find that those two were working really well together?

00:02:33:13 – 00:02:43:24
Speaker 2
It may kind of actually, because this lot was going on, it perhaps increased or did anything change with your passion and love? You know, the creepy or the horror with the paranormal?

00:02:44:01 – 00:03:08:01
Speaker 1
I mean, there’s there’s always a community for people who like spooky things because it’s so prevalent. And, but you don’t necessarily find that in church. And so that’s or at least so you don’t find people who are willing to admit that in church, it’s more of a kind of a, either a private thing that people enjoy privately, but wouldn’t dare say, you know, well, I like I like watching a ghost story or whatever, a reading a ghost story.

00:03:08:03 – 00:03:28:22
Speaker 1
Or it might be that people are actively trying to avoid those topics because it’s almost like pornography. It’s like, oh, no, I would really love to watch, horror film, but I know I can’t because a demon will kind of leap out the screen and sort of be in, because the rhetoric behind these topics are often that they’re dangerous.

00:03:28:24 – 00:03:53:12
Speaker 1
And so when I was growing up, I naturally didn’t find Christians who would share my interest in these topics because of these reasons. Either they thought it was just off limits or it was wrong or was too dark. But I found plenty of people in the kind of normal, everyday world who would get excited about some of films that were scary or stories that were spooky or too, and teachers, you know, teachers that would say, oh, you’re reading Dracula.

00:03:53:12 – 00:04:12:12
Speaker 1
Fantastic. That’s a wonderful novel, Oral Frankenstein. That’s got so much to say. So yeah. So I, I would find my, kind of metaphysical exploration, ironically and supernatural exploration happening outside of the church because the church did not want it in that particular flavor.

00:04:12:14 – 00:04:34:08
Speaker 2
Yeah. Why do you think the church, I mean, you kind of alluded to it briefly, I think. But why do you think the church is so wary, afraid, you know, or suppresses that, you know, the ideas of death or anything beyond that, the supernatural, the horror, the fear. What do you think is it about that that the church is so afraid of?

00:04:34:10 – 00:04:57:22
Speaker 1
Well, I mean, it’s it’s it’s complex and understandable when you think of it on a basic level that, you would tend to think that, well, religion is all about or Christianity particularly is all about positivity and hope and love and faith. Whereas a horror film and immediately when someone thinks of a horror film, they might think, oh, so that’s all about, gore or death or it’s glorifying violence.

00:04:57:24 – 00:05:27:13
Speaker 1
And so those two camps tend to not mix very well. But I think it’s, it’s a very basic and and, and kind of miss a misunderstanding of, of what those two things are. Religion is not all about light. Religion is about hope and light in the face of genuine, scary darkness. And horror and morbid culture that we have we’ve had throughout, throughout, lives as, as humans.

00:05:27:13 – 00:05:48:04
Speaker 1
And you see it within the Bible itself. It is not all light either. It’s it’s so it’s not all darkness. It’s it’s it’s trying to come to terms with these topics in, in safe ways, ways that we can handle. And so for those, those two people, these two groups are kind of on a similar quest to find answers to the big questions.

00:05:48:10 – 00:06:19:06
Speaker 1
And that’s why I, I just find it so tragic that, there’s this divide between them. And, but the amount of people I’ve met who are interested in religion, but because they’re interested in these other things, they feel, well, they don’t qualify for Christianity because as soon as I arrive, I’ll get told off for wearing black. I’ll get, told off for liking heavy metal or that I enjoy, you know, scary things, that they get pushed away and it’s.

00:06:19:08 – 00:06:34:02
Speaker 2
And sometimes it is also about the unknown, isn’t it? You know, we don’t if we push it away and we leave it and we don’t find out anything about it, then at the it’s more of an unknown, you know, when there was recent conversation with someone about revelation and they were just like, oh, it’s too dark, it’s too scary.

00:06:34:02 – 00:06:39:23
Speaker 2
I don’t want to talk. Yeah. Why do we not want to enter in that? Why do we not want to allow ourselves to do that? Yeah.

00:06:39:24 – 00:07:01:01
Speaker 1
I mean, I would add that, I’m not evangelical about horror. So, I do think it’s very fair that for some people, the dark topics are just too much. And so I wouldn’t want to trigger anyone and say, if you want to be a fully rounded Christian, you should watch The Exorcist. I, I’m not saying that because for some reason it’s for some people that’s just not what they like.

00:07:01:01 – 00:07:21:13
Speaker 1
And so fine. And I and I’m not trying to force anything like that on them. What I do take exception to is, however, the, the attitude which says, but for the millions of people who explore the deep topics and also just find entertainment in watching these sorts of things, that they should not be allowed to have that outlet.

00:07:21:15 – 00:07:44:12
Speaker 1
That is that’s an issue because it’s it’s missing what our culture has done for centuries. If you look at the great works of, of literature, for example, the ones that have survived, they are often filled with really quite shocking and horrible topics and you could say, oh, do they survive despite of those horrible things?

00:07:44:12 – 00:08:09:19
Speaker 1
No, they despite the they survived precisely because of them. Because they are the ones that that address the, the darker types of, experience. So yes, for me, some people would look at me and say, oh, you like this stuff because you enjoy death and stuff? No, I’m actually more fearful than most people. I, I, I have I get anxiety about the idea of death and suffering and, and and pain.

00:08:09:21 – 00:08:37:15
Speaker 1
I always have, and particularly in the last few years, I definitely have with Covid and all that sort of thing. And you would you’d think in a society that is scared, say, in the pandemic, that if you went on Netflix, everyone would be watching happy go lucky romcoms to try and escape this the sadness, but instead the the highest trending films were films about pandemics and about disease and about, you know, contagion.

00:08:37:17 – 00:09:02:17
Speaker 1
Because in a time of fear, people, some people can put their head in the sand, but others, say, I have to. I have to address this somehow, but I don’t think I can address it full on. Can I find a fictionalized version? And this is where horror films or or a crime fiction, or or ghost stories could step in and give us a safe place in which to explore our fears.

00:09:02:17 – 00:09:14:04
Speaker 1
But it’s certainly not because we like being scared in real life. It’s we want to train ourselves in fictional ways to cope with what we really are frightened of.

00:09:14:06 – 00:09:30:21
Speaker 2
And that’s such an interesting, take on that. And I think as somebody who I am, absolutely, I get scared. Somebody’s walking in the room and I jump, and I’m very, you know, that’s not something I enter into, but I think it’s really key in that it’s having that outlet for those that need to do that is important.

00:09:30:21 – 00:09:50:21
Speaker 2
And the chat should be in every sphere that people need to express themselves in and to, to knock something away because, you know, it’s perhaps not we like is is it’s the wrong thing to do. And it’s I love that I’m seeing more and more through fresh expressions and through that community, that there are outlets for people to express themselves.

00:09:50:23 – 00:09:59:24
Speaker 2
Yeah, to connect with God in ways that you know, that and that. That’s how God has created us to be. You know, we’re really. Yeah. I also have that outlet of expression.

00:10:00:04 – 00:10:18:05
Speaker 1
Yeah, exactly. And I can remember, you know, when I was a, when I was a pastor and, you know, sitting in, for example, say, parent toddler groups and trying to kind of engage, the parents society and kids at the time with, with spiritual topics. And so I like to say, hey, hey, guys, we’re having an off course.

00:10:18:07 – 00:10:35:17
Speaker 1
And they would be like, well, what’s that? And I would just go over the head. We’re going to learn about Jesus and what he can do in your life. And there’s something there’s so much baggage, even just with the name Jesus, you’re like, oh, right. You’re not talking about spiritual t, you’re talking about like a control mechanism for my life, or you’re talking about a restrictive viewpoint.

00:10:35:18 – 00:10:57:15
Speaker 1
Are you talking about prejudice or homophobia? You know, all of these things go on in people’s minds when we present spirituality in a in the one word Jesus. For some people, but I would notice that if ever the topic came up, like, oh, did you know that the house on the house on West View number four, did you know that supposedly haunted and then you’d suddenly see people go, well, tell me that story.

00:10:57:15 – 00:11:24:16
Speaker 1
What, what? Tell me about this. And a pastor pastor sitting there has the choice of saying, let’s shut this conversation down, because now you’re going down the dangerous spirituality route. Whereas for me, I was like, hi, go in a minute. These these are git that the interest is genuine and it’s in the same stuff. It’s in the same topics of the story of the house being haunted might make me wonder about life after death, or if there is some sort of hope.

00:11:24:16 – 00:11:45:07
Speaker 1
Well, if the supernatural even exists. And so for me to shut that down instantly because it’s, it’s, it hasn’t come through the right door to start with, I think is unfair. But people did that with me when I was first exploring Christianity, and I tried to go cold turkey on, horror films and stuff like that, but that didn’t really work.

00:11:45:09 – 00:11:52:00
Speaker 1
So. Yeah. So it’s it’s a valuable, source for some people to explore these topics.

00:11:52:02 – 00:12:09:16
Speaker 2
And I guess from this came, you know, you hope the community that you you’ve built so creepy cove how this community, how did it start? And kind of where did that come from? Did the books come first? Like how had kind of keep the contact for our listeners as to how that,

00:12:09:18 – 00:12:28:13
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, I suppose like the, the community that I built is, is, is about creepy code, but it’s, it’s a bit more. I’ll explain what that is for some people who don’t know what that is. But, I think once you start, once you start getting books published in books and shops and stuff, you start to be encouraged by the publishers to kind of build a community of readers.

00:12:28:13 – 00:12:46:06
Speaker 1
So of course you want to have a or they call it a platform rather than a community, but because you’re building these platforms on social media, they really do become communities. And so, it’s people chatting to each other and sharing things about what they’re into. So you build these things. And I was naturally building these things through social media.

00:12:46:06 – 00:13:20:12
Speaker 1
Anyway, YouTube channel and, you know, Twitter and Instagram and Facebook stuff like that. But it was during the pandemic that I decided to go back into podcasting again. I was doing a podcast about ten years ago about horror and theology, and then I went back in to make a podcast in the Covid pandemic called, Creepy Cove Community Church, which is basically like a fictionalized church that exists in a, a sort of spooky fishing town where all horror movies actually happened.

00:13:20:14 – 00:13:45:13
Speaker 1
And so I just thought, what? When you listen to a, when you listen to a church service, you know, in the pandemic particularly, everyone’s like listening to it remotely, either on YouTube or, on, on a podcast or whatever. I thought, well, if you’re not restricted by physical space, why not just invent a church that fits the needs of a certain group of people and culture, and they know it’s fictional.

00:13:45:15 – 00:14:09:15
Speaker 1
It’s obviously fictional because it’s like, where was it? The congregation? But but it’s just like a normal service. It’s got, you know, notices and it has some spooky hymns and it’s got a sermon which isn’t normally about wellbeing and encouraging people, and it has plenty of space to say, I’m going to pray now if you want to, if you don’t want to say the what Jesus in this, if that freaks you out, then swap that out for something else.

00:14:09:15 – 00:14:31:11
Speaker 1
If you’re really worried about that, don’t it? Like you’re like deliberately trying to make it a safe space for people who are antagonistic towards Christianity? And I found after doing that the you get messages from people who say, you know, I’m a I’m a, I’m a, I’m a atheist or I’m a Satanist, but I, I listen to your church services all the time.

00:14:31:11 – 00:14:47:04
Speaker 1
They really help me. And I’m okay with you mentioning the Jesus stuff because it’s. You’re not trying to kind of ram it down my throat. And and a community, particularly through my Patreon, which is a thing where people kind of because it’s not it takes a while to do these things. People kind of pay a little bit a month.

00:14:47:10 – 00:15:13:06
Speaker 1
It’s not a very big Patreon, but it’s a group of people, mostly not Christians, who pay, a little bit of money once a month to have access to extra things. So this thing is really a mixture of kind of spirituality, wellbeing, comedy, music and just weirdness. But around that, I do other podcasts during the pandemic because it’s not easy to kind of make money doing this stuff.

00:15:13:08 – 00:15:33:03
Speaker 1
To, to, to, to get to get more of an income. I because I’m not doing it. I’m not a pastor anymore. Sort of stepped away from that. I, I do another two podcasts for an American company that, that have run adverts. And again, you build a, you build a kind of community around that. So I, I’m, I’m a big fan of, communities online.

00:15:33:04 – 00:15:57:09
Speaker 1
I don’t I’m not a believer in the. Oh it’s not real. It’s not real connection if you’re not face to face. I just don’t buy that. I do think you have a different type of connection when you’re face to face, but you also have a different type of connection when you’re not face to face. And I have been amazed at how much support I have got personally by just being able to message people.

00:15:57:09 – 00:16:22:19
Speaker 1
Some people who I don’t even know that well, but are part of my Patreon or whenever. So so yeah, communities built not around geography, because if you do that, you’re naturally limited to the tastes and interests of that group. So I couldn’t say, hey, I’m going to set up a horror church in my town, but probably get me and like three of the people.

00:16:22:21 – 00:16:53:03
Speaker 1
But if I set it up, for the world, then, you know, it ends up like creepy coves in the top 10% of podcasts, you know, or the other to the podcast I do. One of them, frightful, is in the top 1% of all podcasts in the whole world. And that’s me telling scary true stories, so people can connect with this stuff, and they don’t have to rely on the geography to do it.

00:16:53:05 – 00:17:16:21
Speaker 2
But, I mean, the piece of, online community is something that resonates with, me and the community that we serve in and deeply, particularly my husband is very passionate about that and just want to kind of expand on that a bit more and because you mentioned that there are a few naysayers about digital, church and online community, and yeah, you think you get about think particularly.

00:17:16:23 – 00:17:40:21
Speaker 2
I think the pandemic has driven that a lot. It’s driven it a lot further and perhaps brought the conversation closer. But what do you think? Is it what do you think it is about digital church that perhaps is more for some being, you know, is a place where they feel a church that they can belong to. What do you think it is that captures people, perhaps, who are maybe God’s church?

00:17:40:23 – 00:18:03:01
Speaker 1
I think I think what is the is the the kind of the, the golden magic of digital church is often that it is much more interactive and and the the problem I guess with traditional Sunday morning church. And by the way, I still go to church on a Sunday morning, so I still there’s a value in that.

00:18:03:02 – 00:18:26:13
Speaker 1
But you have you have to admit that it is, relentlessly theatrical model of church. It is not an interactive model of church. So you it’s it’s just like going to the cinema or the theater and that’s that’s what it is. The audience arrives, they sit in their chairs. They the most they interact is they stand up and maybe they they sing, but that’s not much of an interaction.

00:18:26:13 – 00:18:45:07
Speaker 1
That’s just backing up whatever’s up there. I’m not I’m not. Again, I’m not saying that’s not very good, but you’re not. No one’s hearing your views or anything in that. You know, you’re saying what you’ve been told to say, and that’s fine if you agree with it. And then you ought to you have a, a a talk delivered to you, which again, I can find very helpful.

00:18:45:09 – 00:19:11:11
Speaker 1
And then after that you go home and then nine times out of ten in the car, you start to critique the theatrical model that you just said, what did you think of that? Did you think it was good today? I thought that was interesting. I didn’t like it when that happened. And you go home and it’s it’s it’s literally like, a person arriving at, at a restaurant being given a meal and then going home, and there was a place for that.

00:19:11:13 – 00:19:39:24
Speaker 1
But there is there’s there’s power in having a meal where you are involved in the cooking or you’re involved in the, I’ll just stop a second, like, you know, actually, this is what I think. Or hey, what about that? And this is that this is the value, I think, of digital churches when during the pandemic, the church I was going to at the time, which we, we had, services online, but it wasn’t just watching a YouTube service.

00:19:39:24 – 00:19:58:02
Speaker 1
You could watch that, but actually it was it was like this. It was discussion. It was breaking off into groups. And at the end of that, it was time to go back to the normal services. And so it was like time to wind down those groups. And the irony was, though, we went around the group saying, how have you found this experience?

00:19:58:02 – 00:20:17:20
Speaker 1
And they’ve said, well, to be honest, I have learned more about the Bible. I have feel more connected to the church because I’ve actually opened my mouth and spoke to other people. And you guys have heard a bit about my issues. This has been a powerful experience of church for me, but of course it comes to an end because now we’re back to normal.

00:20:17:22 – 00:20:37:11
Speaker 1
Which is a shame and actually quite shocking when you think about it. That that we drop it because most of us can go back to church, especially for those people who are housebound and, you know, can’t go to church with, oh, well, that’s over now. Now that it doesn’t affect us, it’s over now. So yeah, people found that very, very helpful.

00:20:37:13 – 00:21:01:03
Speaker 1
So I think for me basically, listening to a sermon in a church is almost like listening to a podcast. So if I had if I had to decide what should church look like, it would be you. You have your Sunday morning experience digitally. You know, if you if you walk around, like just listening to on a podcast, I’ll watch it on YouTube because you’re not going to interact anyway.

00:21:01:03 – 00:21:19:21
Speaker 1
So you might as well watch that on your own at home. And if you’re going to have anything together, it should be the house group or the cell group or the group where you interact or you do social things. And the digital church is a is a space is a kind of hybrid of both of those things.

00:21:19:23 – 00:21:45:15
Speaker 2
Yeah. And I think, you know, moving to that model is important because one of the biggest kind of arguments for, you know, an issues that many kind of come up with in terms of digital church is where in what spaces, where can or does discipleship happen. And, you know, if it you know, if so, if we are saying discipleship comes from a digital community, does it have to be the same or should it be the same?

00:21:45:15 – 00:21:58:12
Speaker 2
And, I think so. How have you found kind of exploring that piece about where discipleship comes in with digital church and podcasting or, you know, either for Creepy Cove or for just in general?

00:21:58:14 – 00:22:20:19
Speaker 1
Well, I think it’s recognizing that there are limits, I suppose, to that traditional digital, church experience. I mean, you could I mean, like if I wanted to, I could get very full on and just be a normal pastor in a sense of Creepy Cove. And I could be having pastoral meetings with people and all. I mean, probably do we do a bit of that where we kind of, how are you doing and catching up?

00:22:20:19 – 00:22:55:14
Speaker 1
And we have church socials, but like just, to me play games and mess around. Now we’re there to support one another. But no, I’m not. I’m personally not running like Alpha course type groups or things like that. Because for me, this is that’s not what my role is in on the earth. I think my role on the earth is and I think more and more people are needed for this role, is to remind people that there are open minded Christians that exist.

00:22:55:16 – 00:23:24:12
Speaker 1
And I think that it’s actually quite a full time role of just being that person who hopefully, yeah, you know, balances things away from, oh, they’re all homophobic or they’re all horrible or they’re all prejudice. The amount of people who are just drifting away from Christianity, particularly, you know, I saw that recent, survey that came out, you know, I think that people who kind of standing in the gap is a bit too bit too religious of a phrase.

00:23:24:12 – 00:23:43:05
Speaker 1
But there is a gap. There is a gap between. And I only became why did I become a Christian? It was because I, I suddenly met other Christian. So I thought, oh, you’re actually quite a good laugh. Well, oh, you’re all you’re intelligent, you know. Oh, you’ve got a you’ve got a degree. Are you work at this or you’re a tutor.

00:23:43:05 – 00:24:03:12
Speaker 1
And in physics. Wow. You allowed to be a Christian and and I didn’t need them to disciple me. They were just the kind of the shop window to say, oh, maybe. Maybe I could belong there. And so what I’ve found is the people who go to Creepy Cove might start saying, I start a try. My local church and a cycle.

00:24:03:12 – 00:24:27:20
Speaker 1
Great. So so I but I, I wouldn’t want to give the impression that this is, this is a proper church and that I’m I’ve got very strong sort of disciple, like I’m trying to put them through the sausage factory of in the end to will, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll, you’ll ultimately attend the theatrical model of church because that’s the, that’s the thing that will show that you’re a proper Christian.

00:24:27:22 – 00:24:50:20
Speaker 1
I don’t that’s not quite how I see it. And the alternative, of course, is what we just say. Well, you could either be full on going to church regularly every week or just don’t bother like that a bit of all or nothing like this. There are so many people who exist in the minimal space. I did a talk recently at a paranormal conference.

00:24:50:22 – 00:25:14:14
Speaker 1
I suppose to share a story, or you can ask me that later there. Yeah, yeah, I saw the email that said I’m supposed to sell the story of something and and I’ll just quickly tell you this, that, the thing I thought to tell you about was I recently did a talk at a, a paranormal conference in at the University of Bath, and it’s a conference organized by a group called ASAP, which is the Association for the Scientific Study of Anomalous Phenomenon.

00:25:14:16 – 00:25:46:00
Speaker 1
And it’s a, yeah, it’s it’s the group doing go for quite a while. I’ve spoken there quite a few times and it’s, it’s a, it’s groups of people who try to take a scientific approach to understand things like ghosts or haunted house, or haunted houses or miracles or poltergeist or possession. But the vast majority, if not all of them on some conferences are not Christian, or they have gone to try explore Christianity, but they have been sent away pretty much because of their interests.

00:25:46:02 – 00:26:12:06
Speaker 1
And so I was giving a talk at that group, in September, and my talk was entitled is is the paranormal a new religious movement? Because in my mind it is the, the, the huge interest in ghosts and haunted houses and spirits and all that sort of stuff. To me there is there is definitely something of the religious about it.

00:26:12:08 – 00:26:37:20
Speaker 1
And you can you can correlate my lifetime, if you put on a graph like the amount of people who are interested in, organized Christianity and go to church, organized religion in general, but particularly Christianity just goes down, down, down, down, down. But then particularly after in the early 2000, the interest in the paranormal ghost shows and, haunted house shows and all this sort of stuff, it’s just up, up, up, up.

00:26:37:20 – 00:27:04:12
Speaker 1
It’s it’s so popular in these days. You know, there’s paranormal groups all over the place and ghost hunting clubs and that it’s huge. It’s. I write a monthly column for a magazine called the 14 Times, which is, a massive magazine on this topic. And, that’s gone. And so even though in the early 2000 people said, oh, atheism is going to take over, you know, the God Delusion book is basically.

00:27:04:13 – 00:27:26:15
Speaker 1
And that was the conversation I remember when I was working at churches at the time. Oh, I guess skepticism and atheism is going to become the, the biggest, biggest, world view in ten years, 20 years time. That’s not happened. The biggest group is what they call the the the nonce, the in between, as I call them, the people who are not religiously affiliated.

00:27:26:17 – 00:28:07:18
Speaker 1
For good reason, perhaps because they just see it as prejudice or anti ecology or anti-women. But they’re not going to become atheists because they still have this feeling maybe there is something. And so they exist in this liminal space and the paranormal is the perfect place for them to explore because it allows testing, you know, Christianity, if you were to imagine if you went to church on Sunday and you said, I brought some EMF meters and some other scientific equipment, and I’d like to measure if anything actually changes in the atmosphere when we start to pray.

00:28:07:20 – 00:28:36:07
Speaker 1
I just want some evidence of it. That’s that’s not an unreasonable thing for a searching person to do. But we would know that’s not how our faith works. Our faith is not about scientific testing. It’s about faith in your head or in your heart that that doesn’t appeal to many people today, not least because why should I trust you when so many ministers abuse children and don’t talk and then they cover it up?

00:28:36:07 – 00:29:00:00
Speaker 1
All this scandals, you know, there’s good reason for them not to trust the word of a person. Whereas the paranormal says, go to a haunted location, get out your, you know, your record isn’t all that stuff and test it. And that appeals to the modern mindset, but it also provides, a kind of version of spirituality which doesn’t really have any moral demands.

00:29:00:00 – 00:29:22:13
Speaker 1
It’s not asking you to become a certain type of person. It’s purely about the spiritual quest. And I think people are in spiritual quest. The irony is, I think the people in the paranormal world and the people in the church world are on the same quest. And it’s the quest that asks, is there anybody there up there in the ether, God or ghosts or whatever?

00:29:22:15 – 00:29:48:05
Speaker 1
But also, is there anybody there next to me exploring the same questions and having the same fears that I have? And so I just think it’s very sad that, oh, yes, I gave this talk and after it, I was just inundated with people saying that spoke to me. I’ve never thought of my interest in ghosts as being potentially a hangover from religion, but maybe it is.

00:29:48:05 – 00:30:11:15
Speaker 1
That’s kind of messing with my head, but I think it could be. And, but but, but most of those people, their experience of Christians has been your demonic, you know, you’re messing with the devil and you’re going to get in trouble. And it’s just and I don’t want any I’m certainly not going to go and hang around with you.

00:30:11:17 – 00:30:37:00
Speaker 1
So I wanted to share that story, to say I think the theme I was told was like, for such a time as this, the time right now is a time where the world is filled with loads of nuns, loads of inbetweeners who are open, and therefore we need a lot of people in that. In between to connect the dots.

00:30:37:02 – 00:30:55:16
Speaker 1
And, that’s what I’m trying to do. And, I think there’s people out there who will be doing it, and that doesn’t mean you have to do the whole hog that I’ll do that, and then I’ll get them all the way to the end. There is no end, in a way. There’s just what happens. There’s what naturally happens with God, with these people.

00:30:55:18 – 00:31:21:06
Speaker 2
Yeah, I love that. When you said about connecting the dots, because I remember seeing a statistic that came out, I think it was in the Telegraph all the times about how during the pandemic, spirituality and prayer had risen. And it was the other people said that it wasn’t necessarily to a organized religion, God or being or entity, but just found themselves in a space, and I did I mean, being, you know, in mission and experiencing communities.

00:31:21:08 – 00:31:38:15
Speaker 2
The community, I mean, is heavily spiritual. You know, they are a spiritual ticular in terms of earth and ecology and creation. And yeah, I think the same with like yoga and mindfulness and yes, things that exist, you know, they are people connecting to that.

00:31:38:17 – 00:31:39:22
Speaker 1
And.

00:31:39:24 – 00:32:02:02
Speaker 2
I think one of I’m curious, you know, you’ve you shared your story about kind of what it is and where we are. What do you think in terms of either digital ministry or where you are, is one of the your biggest challenges that you face kind of currently in, in your mission and your ministry in serving, you know, the way that you do now?

00:32:02:04 – 00:32:24:10
Speaker 1
I mean, I suppose on a, on a practical level, and this is not me, vying for support or anything, it’s just, practical. And so it’s, it’s not easy to kind of finance some of these things because it’s so out there, you know, and I get that. And so I wouldn’t like I, I’d, I’d also because my aim is not as strictly evangelical.

00:32:24:12 – 00:32:42:16
Speaker 1
It doesn’t fit into I don’t even like that term. I don’t even like the term kind of mission in a way, because it feels too. I don’t know, too, like, prescriptive and and too, like, I know what I know best. So I’m going to get you to be in the place that I’ve figured out. I’m not really from that point of view.

00:32:42:16 – 00:33:27:00
Speaker 1
I’m more in the kind of everyone kind of stumbling on together, trying to figure out what the hell is going on. And, and that for me, the Christianity sort of option is more persuasive than I used to think when I was growing up. And so that’s then that. But that vagueness is so frustrating. So, so, you know, I, I’ve never attempted to try and get some sort of backing, financial backing from like a Christian group, because partly maybe because of kind of control or worry that, oh, you’ll, you’ll turn this into a, you know, an alpha course, you know, an evangelical thing that has to have a certain outcome to be successful.

00:33:27:02 – 00:33:55:08
Speaker 1
Whereas if when you’re in that middle space, sometimes it’s a little bit more messy. So, so therefore the relying on basically, you know, some atheist guy in America who just enjoys the shows and takes a little bit a month, that that obviously means that I have to do other I have to do other work. So I do like work as a chaplain a couple of days a week, and I do other things as well to, but it but it means that I can’t, I can’t put in the amount of work that I’m really passionate about because because of that.

00:33:55:12 – 00:34:19:18
Speaker 1
So that that’s a practical thing. And again, that’s I’m not moaning about it. I’m just saying to other people in that space, if you’re if you don’t have a very kind of strict, this is what this is what I’m doing and this is where I’m going. And then, yeah, I think people can struggle to spot that. So yeah, it’s a that can be a practical challenge I suppose, but also understand like just try to explain it to people.

00:34:19:18 – 00:34:49:23
Speaker 1
It’s why I wrote my book, The Frighteners, which was like a pop psychology book of trying to explain and defend the human morbid streak. And I’ve been amazed at the response to that book that came out in America and also in Taiwan randomly and in Britain. And I just get messages all the time from people who’ve read that book and said it was a pastorally helpful book to find that young people were not feeling like they were freaks, or that there was something wrong with them for being drawn to these topics.

00:34:50:00 – 00:35:11:17
Speaker 1
In fact, yeah, that’s that’s been kind of the the proudest things in it, to use the word proud of my life, I suppose, is that that pastoral reassurance. It’s a very lonely road, you know, especially if you’re a Christian. You know, people like, you know, you can sit down in interviews and people can, like, think, you know, like a devil worship or something.

00:35:11:17 – 00:35:41:02
Speaker 1
And that just, like, wears you down after a while. It’s sometimes funny, but it’s just like, I’m like, man, I’m just trying to understand, like, scary stuff in my life. And, in the book, it talks about how, children after nine over 11 were seen, who had parents lost in the Twin Towers. They, they had, they built Lego airplanes and smashed them into Lego towers over and over again.

00:35:41:02 – 00:36:05:04
Speaker 1
And people were like, what’s wrong with you? You’re morbid. You’re like, turning this into a game. Stop doing it. And then the child psychologist said, no, no, I think this is they’re living in a chaotic moment in their life. They don’t have the ability to articulate what they’ve experienced. The horror of it all. And so they turn the things that frighten them into predictable patterns.

00:36:05:06 – 00:36:33:03
Speaker 1
And that’s a way of growing mastery over our fears, over their fears. And that’s what I do. That’s what I’ve been doing all my life. And that’s what culture does. And so to think that Christians could swing into that and say, just watch, just watch a happy Christian film that’ll sort you out, or we’ll talk about Philippians four and say, yeah, it says we’re supposed to think of everything that’s that’s noble and right and true.

00:36:33:05 – 00:36:52:14
Speaker 1
And you go, yes, it says true. You got to think about what’s true as well as what’s noble and hopeful. And what is true is things are scary. And to to skip over that is not on. So yeah. There’s different challenges, I suppose. But, the opportunities are exciting to.

00:36:52:16 – 00:37:03:06
Speaker 2
Me about leads powerfully into kind of my next question for you. And very briefly, we’re kind of wrapping up now. Yeah. And and do not which such shame because we could I could talk about this with you for ages. There’s so much depth. Yeah.

00:37:03:06 – 00:37:04:06
Speaker 1
It’s an interesting topic.

00:37:04:12 – 00:37:22:23
Speaker 2
Yeah. But what are your hopes for the future? You know, that could be either kind of with what the wider spectrum of, you know, this topic and, and how your experiencing this or just particularly for creepy carnival. You know, I don’t mind where you go, but just really briefly, what are some of your hopes for the future for?

00:37:23:00 – 00:37:40:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, my creepy cove, I’ve had to I’ve had to kind of step back from making regular creepy codes because it just takes so long and and because I don’t have enough kind of finance to do that, and that’s fine. So that’s just that’s now become like seasons. So where it was, it was coming every two weeks.

00:37:40:19 – 00:38:06:06
Speaker 1
It’s just like there’s three seasons out and people can get them and maybe at some point I’ll be able to do more and I’m okay with that. But the community, the kind of Patreon that I have around that is still still sort of connected through because of my other podcasts as well. So, I think the future for me, well, I hope it’s to keep doing more of this creative stuff and to carry on doing it and possibly some new books.

00:38:06:08 – 00:38:41:22
Speaker 1
But but really, my hope for the, the bigger hope for the church, perhaps, is to is for people to embrace greatness more and to be willing to exist in a space that has mystery and and few answers, which I, I get can frustrate some people, but that is amazingly appealing to some people. And I, I’ve been amazed at how I’ve given a talk, let’s say, and I just happen to have been honest and said, and then I am being honest here.

00:38:41:24 – 00:39:12:08
Speaker 1
It’s possible God doesn’t exist. You know that sometimes I wonder, I sometimes I have doubts whether or not I’m just hopeful for something. A comfort blanket, maybe. And maybe we’re all deluded. It’s possible I don’t tend to live my life based on that, but I do think it’s possible, when I admit that people, particularly because I’ve got a outcome ordained people get shocked when I say that out loud.

00:39:12:10 – 00:39:31:12
Speaker 1
But I’m amazed at how many people that will come up and say, so tell me why you keep moving in that direction. If you think that that I’ve got that intrigued me. And so the vulnerability, I think, and the openness and the willingness to exist in that gray space, I mean, I can’t know for certain. Some people can.

00:39:31:12 – 00:40:02:23
Speaker 1
Maybe I wish I could more, but I’m not fully sure I don’t have that sort of brain. Then if it’s a creative thing, you know, the blank page always has possibilities. Good ones. Bad. But, I think for more Christians to be willing to be honest and unsure and just to demonstrate care and amongst that and fun, I think that’s, that’s, that’s not to be underestimated.

00:40:03:00 – 00:40:23:05
Speaker 1
Whereas others might think, no, no, no, it’s about presenting a systematic system and they will ascribe to the system and then it will come out the other end as the finished product. Yeah, if you like that, that’s fine. But that’s not that’s certainly not how I found people. A lot of people I be work.

00:40:23:07 – 00:40:54:01
Speaker 2
Yeah. One. So when we, when we have our, our guests on with us, we always end with a question asking them, what would you say to others starting their journey. And, you know, we’ve had the guests that we have have, you know, started in journey do different things. But I think for your for your experience in, that you’ve shared with us today, what would you say to others that perhaps have a passion about something that may not be something they feel they can share in church?

00:40:54:01 – 00:41:10:14
Speaker 2
Or what would you say to those who feel like they’re not able to express themselves freely in a normal church, in how do they, begin a journey to connect church or their faith or spirituality to those things that as to how they were created to be? Just really briefly, how.

00:41:10:14 – 00:41:29:22
Speaker 1
Would you I’d say so. Then I’d say celebrate your weirdness. It’s a gift not only to you, but it’s a gift to the world. And it’s there for a reason. And, I mean, no matter how quirky and crazy or weirdness might be, as long as it’s legal, of course. But, you know, embrace that weirdness and see it as a tool for connection.

00:41:30:03 – 00:41:55:02
Speaker 1
And it is a gift. And realize that, there’s other people out there who share your weirdness. But you may not find them in your town, which is why it can be lonely. But you will find them in the world, which is why your your kind of your field is probably the digital space, because that’s where you’re going to be able to make connections with some random other weirdo in another country, perhaps.

00:41:55:04 – 00:42:25:24
Speaker 1
And you don’t need many. You might have the most specific interest and, you might find another 5000 people. You might have another 50 people, let’s say, in the world who like it about a very specific interest. That’s more than many churches have in their congregations. So, yeah, I’d say embrace your weirdness and, go out into the digital space and, and look for those, for those people and connect with them and celebrate them and celebrate an unknown.

00:42:25:24 – 00:42:32:00
Speaker 1
You’re freaking us. I think, I think that that’s the something noble about doing that.

00:42:32:02 – 00:42:54:08
Speaker 2
Great. Thank you so much, Peter. I, I think that’s a, you know, a perfect way to end just celebrate, kind of about your weirdness and, you know, and there is always a space for you in this world. Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. And I really encourage all listeners to, to connect with the have questions to leave it on this space that we can do this.

00:42:54:08 – 00:43:03:12
Speaker 2
And obviously, if you’re interested in what Peter has said has sparked an intrigue, if you find yourself in the same sphere, Creepy Cave Community Church, I’m sure you can Google it online.

00:43:03:15 – 00:43:18:09
Speaker 1
And you have to go to, I mean, the probably the best place to go is Peter Lost or co.uk because then you can find all the different stuff I’m doing. Or you can check out my Patreon at Patreon.com, forward slash Peter Laws or creepy Capcom for the freaky church stuff.

00:43:18:11 – 00:43:29:01
Speaker 2
Well, it’s been such a blessing to hear from you and we hope you have a blessed rest of the day. Yeah. It’s, weird in all its glory and, foreign.

00:43:29:03 – 00:43:29:21
Speaker 1
Thank you Beth. Bye bye.

00:43:30:00 – 00:43:30:21
Speaker 2
Bye, everyone. Peter.

00:43:31:01 – 00:43:37:10
Speaker 1
Bye bye.

00:43:37:12 – 00:43:38:13
Speaker 1
Laugh.

00:43:38:15 – 00:43:39:05
Speaker 2
Yeah.

00:43:39:07 – 00:44:14:05
Speaker 1
That said. Yeah, there’s a lot of, like, three. A lot of food for thought. I think what I loved about that conversation, was, It’s a real practice of just breaking the molds, you know, really, really properly breaking the mold and just saying, you know, being being brave enough to ask questions that culturally, within, within a lot of denominations, just asking questions that people say you shouldn’t ask.

00:44:14:07 – 00:44:40:15
Speaker 1
And I think that’s yeah, that’s really one of the things I wrote down was just the whole thing is like, yeah, for for such time as this, with our sort of overarching theme for this series, and I think what, what, what Peter’s doing and the way he’s presenting it is probably incredibly not is probably I think it is incredibly relevant for how our society works.

00:44:40:17 – 00:45:05:01
Speaker 1
And with a lot of the the mistrust of church and institutions, presenting things in such a way that actually it’s up to people to come, you know, it’s on their terms. It’s not on our terms. And that’s even listening to it. Yeah, there’s my knee jerk reactions are like, I’m swallowing hard at certain things going, well, that’s a challenge, isn’t it?

00:45:05:01 – 00:45:11:05
Speaker 1
But I mean, it’s working, you know.

00:45:11:07 – 00:45:34:23
Speaker 2
I know and I when, when he, when I’ve had pizza and I’ve had him a couple of times that I’m always drawn to how far we got from, you know, back from those early life, you know, the life of Jesus when you know, he when Jesus went all those places where people were like, they don’t go, they don’t go there, like, we can’t touch that.

00:45:35:01 – 00:45:55:09
Speaker 2
Jesus was in those spaces. He ate with people that I mean, it’s not like the paranormal. It’s different. But, you know, if he we’ve closed the door to those because, you know, he touched on it. But whether reasoning, whether it’s a fear or just an uncertainty or an and not need to explore it, but we do needs to be in every sphere.

00:45:55:09 – 00:46:12:05
Speaker 2
We need to be exploring. And you know that we need to step into those because we need to be able to say whether, you know, we can explore this in a healthy way to show them, like Jesus or whether or not, you know, there’s got to we can’t just put something under a carpet and even close it all off, run away.

00:46:12:07 – 00:46:40:10
Speaker 2
We need to be getting into those spaces and, kind of hiding into that. And I loved that. When it is final, answer to my question about, you know, everything he said about tools for connection and just showing your weirdness. And I love that, you know, we I think about a lot of it is this idea of perfection that we try to hold in the church that we have to be a carbon copy.

00:46:40:12 – 00:47:04:20
Speaker 2
And my husband likes to tickle experiences, chat to the chosen frozen, just kind of sitting there all looking the same and nodding at the same time. It’s very robotic, very mechanic, whereas it needs to be messy and it needs to be weird. And, you know, there are times and places for, you know, quietness and stillness or reflection.

00:47:04:22 – 00:47:24:12
Speaker 2
But, you know, if somebody you know loves Lego not do that. If somebody loves horror, why not that? If somebody loves swirl, why not that if some, you know, if somebody loves paddle boarding paddle. I go to paddle boarding church once a month, like if wherever you know, and when you tell people, they’re like, how can you do church on a paddle board?

00:47:24:12 – 00:47:32:02
Speaker 2
And you’re like, well, we’re in. We’re literally in God’s earth. Like, how can we not on those spaces? So I think, yeah.

00:47:32:04 – 00:47:52:16
Speaker 1
That’s yeah, that did it’s quite inspiring. Again, just thinking about sort of the different sort of, examples of fresh expressions that we, we hear and see. And again, for people at the. Yeah, there’s, there’s a section on a website that gives a list of different fresh expressions, a growing list of, stuff that’s there to inspire people.

00:47:52:16 – 00:48:24:10
Speaker 1
But when you listen to, to Peter’s story, it’s it’s just he’s gone. I mean, his coming to faith was through his, one of his passions. And he’s really engaged with that. And you know what what are people’s passions? That’s the really exciting thing is it doesn’t have to be right. I’m going to go through the, the one of the, the main structures of the church, be it whatever denomination that you, are a part of or my lend yourself to.

00:48:24:12 – 00:48:50:17
Speaker 1
They can help for sure, obviously. And you can do things in partnership with different churches, but it can be as simple as, you know, for me, I have the the sort of fantasy thing of like mountain biking, church, you know, what does that look like? How can I how can I do that? But then that’s well, for me it’s like most I’m, I’m an introvert most of the time, a way because I’m wearing and but I do have these moments going like, oh, what could that looked like.

00:48:50:17 – 00:48:53:17
Speaker 1
And that just could be really, really cool.

00:48:53:19 – 00:49:17:24
Speaker 2
But so boarding church is like that, you know, we have like we have sessions where people just go out. And I love in those moments that there is sometimes they’re all gathered in is in like a hub. And there’s one person and she’s like reading off her phone and passage of scripture, but I’m just like, oh, because I want this time because this time, this form of church for me should just be off in my own and shouldn’t be.

00:49:18:01 – 00:49:44:14
Speaker 2
But with but I’m still ways that make sense. I’m on my own same time and I’m I’m not thinking about anything else. You know, I’m not allowing the distractions. I’m just moving and going and being in. And the freedom. All I kept thinking about when it, when Peter was talking was about how freeing it is. And I think a lot of people think that, you know, ironically, that what they’re doing is not freedom at all.

00:49:44:14 – 00:50:08:00
Speaker 2
It’s the opposite. But there is when he’s talking, you can sense that, you know, prior to this, there was this spike trap of, you know, I can’t be this because those two don’t go together. But when he realized that there were people that, you know, were weird, you know, or were different or were explored other things other than what he thought wasn’t allowed, it was like it unlocked.

00:50:08:00 – 00:50:26:11
Speaker 2
And that freedom to be able to explore anything, and that is so, you know, Jesus is the epitome of freedom. And I think nothing in there’s nothing in us that said, like when everybody says, oh, I’m not allowed to show who I am, I can’t be that. I just think that’s just so opposed anything of the gospel that we know.

00:50:26:13 – 00:50:46:08
Speaker 2
You know, we. So it’s not we shouldn’t be, we need and that’s one of the things fresh expression starts. It’s unlocking those that freedom to express, you know, messy church, all those things, whatever. It’s unlocking that freedom in them in an amazing way.

00:50:46:10 – 00:50:48:02
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:50:48:04 – 00:51:08:16
Speaker 2
So good. And the digital print, I, you know, we’re both at mass. We’re back. You know, the expressions that we said but very passionate about digital charge and mediums. And, I loved his response about just the discipleship question that you sent me to share, because that is such a huge thing, isn’t it, that people always say, well, how can you disciple?

00:51:08:16 – 00:51:25:11
Speaker 2
And I know because I’m well, that’s not my role on this earth to do. You know, we don’t all have to feel the 11 steps we can. Some of us can just be the first four steps. But if we enable people to get to step five, six and seven, amazing. Or if they just stay there for a period of time, that’s great.

00:51:25:11 – 00:51:37:18
Speaker 2
If as long as they are connecting, if they’re experiencing, if they’re touching into or just dipping their toe into the amazing pool that is Jesus is love and grace for what you know.

00:51:37:20 – 00:52:04:15
Speaker 1
We can’t we can’t do it all, can we? You know, when I think about exhausted church leaders, I often think about those people who are busy who try and do everything, and it’s just like, well, you need you need team, you need people around you. And sometimes that’s macro and micro view, right? You know, sometimes it you might be a, a church leader who is doing everything, and you might have someone who comes and comes across your path, but you don’t have to do everything to them.

00:52:04:19 – 00:52:27:01
Speaker 1
But then it’s the thing of doing two rather than doing with, as you’ve, were saying last time, and we’ve got to fight that urge to do this, to evangelize at someone and to make them go on this journey to disciple someone, and even that term to disciple people. It that that language is very much it’s an action we do to people.

00:52:27:03 – 00:52:52:13
Speaker 1
And it’s not that’s not what it is. And we’ve fallen into that trap, I think, hugely. That’s the I want to spin a coin, a phrase that we were using. But I just he talked and Peter talked a lot about The Inbetweeners. And again, I was just thinking that we, and filling the gaps and yes, there’s sort of some charged language and charged Christians about that.

00:52:52:15 – 00:53:14:22
Speaker 1
And Christian language about it. But I think we fill different gaps for different people. If someone’s path is a road, that’s going along, we might fill this crack that they might fall into and get stuck in. And part of our journey is, is that just to fill that crack, and it might be multiple cracks that we get to fill.

00:53:14:24 – 00:53:39:01
Speaker 1
And some people will have very big cracks, a specific and it’s but it’s a beautiful thing of that’s fullness where what fresh expressions are are filling those gaps for some people. And it might be, as we’ve heard again and again with the thing for such time as this, in people’s different journeys, there are times for such a time as this for us to be there.

00:53:39:03 – 00:54:00:12
Speaker 1
And then in the grand scheme of, of what’s happening in our society right now. Yes, for such a time, is this something like what Peter’s doing, I think is hugely, hugely exciting. When I don’t. So I just made me, made me also think in that that thing which is a little twee and a bit of a plug, but, you know, I wouldn’t be doing my job properly if I didn’t do the plug.

00:54:00:14 – 00:54:22:09
Speaker 1
When we talk about Inbetweeners and people in the in those in-between spaces, of course, I thought about our March gathering, which is all about leadership in the liminal, in the in those in-between spaces. And how do we navigate that? So I think there’s some there’s definitely a desire to have more conversation about what that looks like.

00:54:22:11 – 00:54:53:13
Speaker 2
Definitely. And I think it’s also. As a about the imperfect and not trying. And you’re so right about not trying to be everything for everyone and being okay that you’re not also going to be what what somebody needs. I think we think that we somebody walks through the door and they have to stay in our, in our house or in our expression or church or whatever it may be, but it’s okay if they go somewhere else.

00:54:53:15 – 00:55:10:24
Speaker 2
Like this is preciousness we hold in, in, in the body of Christ. I think sometimes that, you know, it can’t go anywhere else. One, you know, we feel I feel really passionate about saying, okay, so when you, when we meet somebody, we don’t hold a typical Sunday worship, if that’s what you want. Tell me about your service.

00:55:10:24 – 00:55:28:02
Speaker 2
Have coffee in chat. You have children? Well, this has a really good, you know, toddler section or parent and toddler group. All these you know this is very folk in country. This chat. So go here or this is very modern or this is more traditional and liturgical and you can has more of a rhythm more. This one is really great for inclusion.

00:55:28:02 – 00:55:47:22
Speaker 2
And has people that support people with additional needs. So it’s finding the church that allows you that who God has created you to be, to be your best person and to to grow the best out of you. And not every church is going to be that for every person. And we don’t. I think trying to be that all the time is where we fall short because we’re not God.

00:55:47:22 – 00:56:03:19
Speaker 2
We’re not going to be everything for everyone to find where we feel called to do, find, you know, the people that your church are leaning to and step into that. And if we had more of that, I think more people would come to church because they wouldn’t feel like they have to try and fit into every thing. They can just be who they are.

00:56:03:19 – 00:56:17:12
Speaker 2
They’re like, this is the church for me, ongoing. They’re not well, well, there’s no one else like me here, so I can’t go here. And, well, if there’s no one like me for me here, I don’t think it’s going to be any anyone for me next door or down the road or down the road. And we’ve got a.

00:56:17:16 – 00:56:34:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I do wonder if we need to get better at just. And that’s where fresh expression I think is done. That is it’s trying to you know do that. And we’re not perfect. We’re never going to get there. You know we’re not going to be perfect until we’re a new creation. But we can continually try to be that.

00:56:34:01 – 00:56:38:03
Speaker 2
On that count. We continue to try to even end a piece of that.

00:56:38:05 – 00:57:04:11
Speaker 1
Yeah. There’s a thing I think probably the biggest challenge for many, as for many of us is, are we willing to to let go and and maybe there’s pride that gets in the way that. Well, not maybe. I think definitely pride does get in the way sometimes because we work hard trying to form, these things that we’re following God diligently in.

00:57:04:13 – 00:57:25:20
Speaker 1
And, but there’s a tension there between what we’re, what we’re trying to do and following God and and people going on a different trajectory. You know, and that’s we’ve got to get we’ve got to become okay with that, you know, because they’re trajectory isn’t our trajectory, but it’s still quite likely God’s to the trajectory bringing them and this thing.

00:57:25:20 – 00:57:33:13
Speaker 1
And that’s okay. And so may. Well yeah I wonder what questions that raises for for people listening.

00:57:33:19 – 00:57:35:14
Speaker 2
I know I’m very glad.

00:57:35:17 – 00:57:55:00
Speaker 1
If you and I are following these these questions and the yeah, I’m sure there’s there’s lots of questions. So yeah. Usual thing. Send your questions in. What do you guys think? Would be really interested to know. Hem. But we are out of time.

00:57:55:02 – 00:58:01:03
Speaker 1
But if. Yeah, I’m, I’m stuttering myself to. There’s still a load of stuff.

00:58:01:05 – 00:58:19:22
Speaker 2
I know my head, my brain. So it’s like great. Thankful that we’ve got such great guests that stare such thinking in us. Because it’s not just for the listeners. It’s for us to to be challenged, inspired. And I’ve in that today. So thankful that we can, you know that listen to and I’m so thankful that we can have this podcast to chat and see these through.

00:58:19:22 – 00:58:23:10
Speaker 2
It’s it’s been great. So brilliant everyone.

00:58:23:12 – 00:58:27:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. Thank you guys. And until next time.

00:58:27:04 – 00:58:37:04
Speaker 2
Have a blessed week everyone.

00:58:37:06 – 01:02:35:02
Speaker 1
For more information on this podcast and Fresh Expressions, go to the Mission Shave podcast.com. You’ll find all our social channels and more episodes. Thanks for listening.

creepycove.com

peterlaws.co.uk

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